MPE solutions (Diva etc.)

[himalaya]

Equator uses LIFT extensively too. It's the first plugin that did it in the 'MPE' way.

[pdxindy]

Equator uses LIFT extensively too. It's the first plugin that did it in the 'MPE' way.

Equator does... but I don't... I haven't found myself capable of effectively controlling release velocity while actually playing. My attempts to make use of it so influences how I play that it isn't useful to me. I'm just not skilled enough. I'd guess that is so for many people.

In that sense I don't care if u-he adds it cause I'm not able to use it.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Equator uses LIFT extensively too. It's the first plugin that did it in the 'MPE' way.

Equator does... but I don't... I haven't found myself capable of effectively controlling release velocity while actually playing. My attempts to make use of it so influences how I play that it isn't useful to me. I'm just not skilled enough. I'd guess that is so for many people.

In that sense I don't care if u-he adds it cause I'm not able to use it.

I'll take that one step further: I don't even get how it really works or how I'd use it, let alone being able to. So how quickly I lift my fingers off the key can be used as a modulation source? How does it know how hard I lift my fingers up? Or am I actually pressing down then letting off? And what kind of modulation would make sense for lift? Like modulate the release time so that if I'm playing kind of stacatto I can make the release shorter than a slower let-off? Not sure.

So yeah, 1) totally don't care about Lift, and 2) if someone feels like explaining it...

[machinesworking]

Equator uses LIFT extensively too. It's the first plugin that did it in the 'MPE' way.

Sure, I just have the Seaboard Block 24 key though, and Roli ships it with a pretty worthless "player" version of Equator. So my first experience with programming Lift for the Seaboard was with Falcon.

UVI are not doing that great of a job of touting their MPE support, it's really pretty dammed easy and good.

[machinesworking]

Equator uses LIFT extensively too. It's the first plugin that did it in the 'MPE' way.

Equator does... but I don't... I haven't found myself capable of effectively controlling release velocity while actually playing. My attempts to make use of it so influences how I play that it isn't useful to me. I'm just not skilled enough. I'd guess that is so for many people.

In that sense I don't care if u-he adds it cause I'm not able to use it.

I'll take that one step further: I don't even get how it really works or how I'd use it, let alone being able to. So how quickly I lift my fingers off the key can be used as a modulation source? How does it know how hard I lift my fingers up? Or am I actually pressing down then letting off? And what kind of modulation would make sense for lift? Like modulate the release time so that if I'm playing kind of stacatto I can make the release shorter than a slower let-off? Not sure.

So yeah, 1) totally don't care about Lift, and 2) if someone feels like explaining it...

Well a really pretty useful thing to use Lift for is to shorten or lengthen Release in an ADSR etc. So Lift works just like velocity but in reverse, the speed you release a note or lift up, can be used to control things like the release time of an ADSR in Falcon etc. or I discovered you can assign it to reverb tails in Cypher 2, so the slower you lift up a note the more reverb etc. It's actually pretty intuitive, but you do need to be able to control when it happens, so a good implementation of it is good.

[pdxindy]

Well a really pretty useful thing to use Lift for is to shorten or lengthen Release in an ADSR etc. So Lift works just like velocity but in reverse, the speed you release a note or lift up, can be used to control things like the release time of an ADSR in Falcon etc. or I discovered you can assign it to reverb tails in Cypher 2, so the slower you lift up a note the more reverb etc. It's actually pretty intuitive, but you do need to be able to control when it happens, so a good implementation of it is good.

Reverb is not per voice so there is no need for a polyphonic modulator... One can more reliably control reverb with a regular monophonic control like Modwheel, Expression Pedal or an XY pad.

If you are able to reliably use it, fortunate for you. When I've examined the release velocity of notes I've played, it is closer to random noise than me having any real control over it. Maybe I need a lot more practice with it.

[EvilDragon]

Practice makes perfect, yes. Release velocity can be extremely useful once you learn how to control it. Well, poly AT is pretty much the same, it's not easy to do it at first (especially if you've never had any experience with poly AT), but gotta practice at it.

[aMUSEd]

Equator uses LIFT extensively too. It's the first plugin that did it in the 'MPE' way.

Sure, I just have the Seaboard Block 24 key though, and Roli ships it with a pretty worthless "player" version of Equator. So my first experience with programming Lift for the Seaboard was with Falcon.

UVI are not doing that great of a job of touting their MPE support, it's really pretty dammed easy and good.

Not tried it yet, does it work with existing patches? (eg I'd like to play the Patchpool banks using MPE)

[machinesworking]

Reverb is not per voice so there is no need for a polyphonic modulator... One can more reliably control reverb with a regular monophonic control like Modwheel, Expression Pedal or an XY pad.

true enough, but I currently have a Seaboard Block, no expression pedal input, and the other methods demand a hand. I'm not a fancy keyboard player, but I do like low notes on my chords or my single note runs...

If you are able to reliably use it, fortunate for you. When I've examined the release velocity of notes I've played, it is closer to random noise than me having any real control over it. Maybe I need a lot more practice with it.

Himalaya mentioned expression curves. Falcon has them for Lift, it helps a lot. I don't know what synths you've tried it on, but messing with the way it responds to your own playing is key for sure. Personally I set it up for drastic, i.e. release .75 of a second to .1 second, with a jump in between, so all quick release jumps to .1 second and all slow release does .75. Subtle release variance doesn't interest me much.

[machinesworking]

Equator uses LIFT extensively too. It's the first plugin that did it in the 'MPE' way.

UVI are not doing that great of a job of touting their MPE support, it's really pretty dammed easy and good.

Not tried it yet, does it work with existing patches? (eg I'd like to play the Patchpool banks using MPE)

It's a script that you can add to most patches. I haven't quite figured out how to use it with UVI soundbanks? (The Beast, String Machines 2 etc.), but I've pretty easily added it to my own patches. This guy shows it all. I had to slow it down in parts, but it's a nice job!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9FQrGFKGSI

[himalaya]

Equator uses LIFT extensively too. It's the first plugin that did it in the 'MPE' way.

Equator does... but I don't... I haven't found myself capable of effectively controlling release velocity while actually playing. My attempts to make use of it so influences how I play that it isn't useful to me. I'm just not skilled enough. I'd guess that is so for many people.

In that sense I don't care if u-he adds it cause I'm not able to use it.

I understand. Out of all the 5 dimensions, LIFT is the most difficult to incorporate into ones playing technique and also the most awkward to programm well so that the effect is musical, useful, expressive but does not get in the way of normal playing.

BTW, I'm only mentioning Equator in context of a post on the previous page which mentions Cypher and Falcon as LIFT-capable. Equator is the originator here (in a plugin format) although the real pioneer is the Eagan Matrix synth engine that comes with the Haken Continuum. This synth, albeit not a plugin, is another thing entirely. So, so deep. So expressive when coupled with the Continuum. Simply amazing (but not easy to use!).

Anyway, I feel a video would show some of the benefits of LIFT, some playing and programming tricks would be nice to have a look at. Assigning amp envelope release is only the beginning. In fact, it's the first step that's needed in order to program and add any other parameters. If the release is ot opened via LIFT, nothing else we do on LIFT will be audible.

[himalaya]

EDIT: what I wrote below is inaccurate. Proper version of what I meant is on page 3.

By the way, when speaking of modulating reverb via polyphonic controllers (LIFT, PRESS, GLIDE, SLIDE, STRIKE) there is a trick in Equator that makes it easier to obtain good results. Its effect section is mono (like Cypher's and pretty much every other synth's), but in Equator you can choose an Fx Modulation Mode, which provides various way of controlling mono effects. One of these modes is the 'average' mode, which is a sneaky way of providing a pseudo-poly-effect expression. Not the best solution but an easy way to overcome the mono-signal path of the effects section.

[pdxindy]

By the way, when speaking of modulating reverb via polyphonic controllers (LIFT, PRESS, GLIDE, SLIDE, STRIKE) there is a trick in Equator that makes it easier to obtain good results. Its effect section is mono (like Cypher's and pretty much every other synth's), but in Equator you can choose an Fx Modulation Mode, which provides various way of controlling mono effects. One of these modes is the 'average' mode, which is a sneaky way of providing a pseudo-poly-effect expression. Not the best solution but an easy way to overcome the mono-signal path of the effects section.

I think it is cool that companies are exploring different modulation options. Cypher has some interesting tools too.

In this particular case... it's just easier and more sure to modulate reverb with the expression pedal or XY pad.

And, no offense meant, but what you are suggesting does not overcome the mono signal path. It is still a mono signal path and the result of averaging the notes is no different than what I can do with the expression pedal. This seems like one of those cases of looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.

[himalaya]

In this particular case... it's just easier and more sure to modulate reverb with the expression pedal or XY pad.

Of course. But many people want to control effects by using the 5D controllers.

And, no offense meant, but what you are suggesting does not overcome the mono signal path. It is still a mono signal path and the result of averaging the notes is no different than what I can do with the expression pedal.

Nowhere am I saying that the 'average' mode "overcomes the mono signal path". I'm saying that it's another option that may or may not give suitable results. It's an option, one of many. Other options in this mode allow you to specify high note, low note, last played note. So we can decide how effects can be usable and controllable with 5D expression.

This seems like one of those cases of looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.

I can assure you that you are mistaken. 5D control of effects is in the top feature requests for the Equator user base. Hence these FX modes. None provide the solution we would trully want, but they still provide usable and most of all practical options, since I can set up a sound so that I can play a chord, and then solo on top and manipulate effects with the solo line. Much nicer than having to do it via the pedal, which would affect my chord as well, in this example.

[pdxindy]

This seems like one of those cases of looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.

I can assure you that you are mistaken. 5D control of effects is in the top feature requests for the Equator user base. Hence these FX modes. None provide the solution we would trully want, but they still provide usable and most of all practical options, since I can set up a sound so that I can play a chord, and then solo on top and manipulate effects with the solo line. Much nicer than having to do it via the pedal, which would affect my chord as well, in this example.

I assume what the users really want is polyphonic FX right? None of these tricks come close to being that...

The manipulated effects still affect the chord... you are talking like you have somehow magically created poly FX... what you are describing is no different than using the pedal. Both are still monophonic FX and all held notes will be affected.