Sinnah feature requests

[arseniy2]

Sinnah feature requests:

A stop sound or panic button or react to stop in DAW. I play notes then the window lose focus and the notes will keep play. IN same case other synths usually stop from stop button in a DAW.

Velocity keytrack. Or maybe matrix so the velocity keytracking could be option there. So it can be set that the higer notes play quiter and lower notes louder. And vice versa.

Matrix. It seems to be cool to modulate some parametrs like lag for example(tho it has to be more smooth values then).

Delay signal level

Filters. Self explanatory I guess.

Probably larger set of waves and smooth wavetable change. Maybe a mixbetween. So the ADSR2Wave make more sense.

Seems no portamento speed control for mono mod.

Init preset

Better design. Maybe I could even help with it.

Don't know why but the wave sounds sharper then softer on the notes. It's very noticeble for example on the Basses/bs blacklines. Set the line of 16th or 8th notes and it will be very noticeble. And every note that is sharp or soft goes to exact ticks. Also it seems happens in poly mode only.

[liqih]

Many thanks for the rich feeback.

Sinnah feature requests:

A stop sound or panic button or react to stop in DAW. I play notes then the window lose focus and the notes will keep play. IN same case other synths usually stop from stop button in a DAW.

Yes this will be in the first update

Velocity keytrack. Or maybe matrix so the velocity keytracking could be option there. So it can be set that the higer notes play quiter and lower notes louder. And vice versa.

Yes it's planned

Matrix. It seems to be cool to modulate some parametrs like lag for example(tho it has to be more smooth values then).

Actually lag is already modulated in the range and speed as the knobs on the right allow. Maybe you think about something more?

Delay signal level

Yes it's planned

Filters. Self explanatory I guess.

Yes it's planned but with reserve, I need to find a good way to add filters to Sinnah

Probably larger set of waves and smooth wavetable change. Maybe a mixbetween. So the ADSR2Wave make more sense.

Yes but since they are not wavetables I'm thinking of layers extensions rather than number of steps.

Seems no portamento speed control for mono mod.

Yes it's planned

Init preset

Yes it's planned

Better design. Maybe I could even help with it.

Please tell me more about that and feel free to send examples.

Don't know why but the wave sounds sharper then softer on the notes. It's very noticeble for example on the Basses/bs blacklines. Set the line of 16th or 8th notes and it will be very noticeble. And every note that is sharp or soft goes to exact ticks. Also it seems happens in poly mode only.

Thanks I will check that.

[arseniy2]

Actually lag is already modulated in the range and speed as the knobs on the right allow. Maybe you think about something more?

I meant the Lag knob itself. It makes some effect like pitch bend. Similar to Native INstruments synths. So I thought might be worthy. Through matrix of course.

Also consider to make such thing in the matrix - so there is a parametr for all 3 delays at once. Like in one slot I could choose option Speed for all 3 delays.

You've made a spread knob. But maybe it's better to have pan knobs for all 3 delays? Seems like same function but full control.

Also I noticed this thing. Some simple notes pattern played and I switched back and forth from Poly to Mono, that also changes wave shape I think mostly noticible on the 1st waveshape.

For the design. The smooth endges instead of pixels. The frame borders around synth parts. Shadows under the knobs probably. Actually I meant I could try make some exact help with the design. Not sure I have time near though. I can't refer to a good flat disign synth. I haven't seen one that I would really like yet.

[liqih]

Actually lag is already modulated in the range and speed as the knobs on the right allow. Maybe you think about something more?

I meant the Lag knob itself. It makes some effect like pitch bend. Similar to Native INstruments synths. So I thought might be worthy. Through matrix of course.

Also consider to make such thing in the matrix - so there is a parametr for all 3 delays at once. Like in one slot I could choose option Speed for all 3 delays.

Yes I get now what you mean. Maybe I could add some Macro knobs to be master of some others, and an extra LFO with various target

You've made a spread knob. But maybe it's better to have pan knobs for all 3 delays? Seems like same function but full control.

Yes but then you have to tweak 3 knobs to make a stereo image, more flexible but I like the simplicity of one knob only. I will think about this.

Also I noticed this thing. Some simple notes pattern played and I switched back and forth from Poly to Mono, that also changes wave shape I think mostly noticible on the 1st waveshape.

Here is a little update for Windows VST with more sound consistency,
some but not all bugs fixed. (Still suggested to keep the GUI close
when you do intensive parameters automations.)
Simply replace the DLL:
http://nusofting.liqihsynth.com/Sinnah_ ... Update.zip
(for Mac users, next week)

For the design. The smooth endges instead of pixels. The frame borders around synth parts. Shadows under the knobs probably. Actually I meant I could try make some exact help with the design. Not sure I have time near though. I can't refer to a good flat disign synth. I haven't seen one that I would really like yet.

The frame borders is really a matter of subjective taste I think, other users like that there are few as possible. Shadows and flat design are usually incompatible, if it's flat there are no shadows, no? I hope you will have time to show draft of your ideas.

Thanks

[arseniy2]

The flat design uses shadows often. It depends of course. Some make with no shadows at all. And there are at least 3 types of shadows I know in flat design.
Anyway. Here is some mockup I made. Sorry it's not covering all stuff and rough. Just have no much time for this. Anyway the placement of stuff will be changed as you add some more stuff.
Full size if the monitor smaller:http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/download/file.php?id=7348

P.S.

In this update I found this. If I place 16th or 8th notes constantly. Then If I turn the ADSR 2 WAVE on and the off then it will make that bug that the wave will be changed between notes.

sinnah.png

[liqih]

Thanks for your examples it looks very nice but it's a very different style from the current GUI. So far I would keep it totally 2D, no shadows.
Also I see you like rounded edges where I prefer sharp ones. Same for uppercase labels vs undercase ones.
From the other elements I may get some inspiration for changes.
As you know it's impossible to make the GUI aesthetic to please everyone, so as long as most users
are happy with my style I will make only little changes.

In this update I found this. If I place 16th or 8th notes constantly. Then If I turn the ADSR 2 WAVE on and the off then it will make that bug that the wave will be changed between notes.

Yes it's not really a bug, so far you can consider that a kind of semi-random modulation
since it doesn't reset oscillator phase. But I'm doing a major rework of the oscillator
with more features for the wave type. For the next updates.

[arseniy2]

I think it's a bug tho. It's not about phase, it switches between wave shapes(adsr2wave is off).

OK. I did not know your preferences. When you make next update I can try make different flat without shadows. However keep in mind the flat design doesn't mean no shadows. Examples - Dagger by BeepStreet, Roli Seaboard Equator.
There are at least 3 type of shadows in flat design. Explanation image attached in case you didn't know.

shadows-types.png

[arseniy2]

I forgot to say. Look at the Wave Picker in my mockup. You said there could be something like layers. So the idea if you click the center you pick a preset wavetable or you can click small circles to pick each wave shape separately.

[blurk]

OK. I did not know your preferences. When you make next update I can try make different flat without shadows. However keep in mind the flat design doesn't mean no shadows. Examples - Dagger by BeepStreet, Roli Seaboard Equator.

Personally, I disagree. Shadows, by definition, imply a third dimension which, in turn, implies non-flatness. Although I guess if you want to go off on a mathematical digression into topology then I guess there are 2D spaces with a non-zero curvature... Anyway, I know people don't regard Wikipedia as authoritative, but here is their take on it:

Flat design is a style of interface design emphasizing minimum use of stylistic elements that give the illusion of three dimensions (such as excessive use of drop shadows, gradients or textures) and is focused on a minimalist use of simple elements, typography and flat colors.

I guess you may argue that the key word there is "excessive", but when I did a Google image search for flat GUI I didn't see any examples of shadows in the random selection of images that I looked at more closely.

As for your two examples, I don't regard Roli Equator as flat at all, because there's definitely a 3D effect going on there. Yes, Beep Street Dagger is flatter, but again even those subtle shadows make it not truly flat for me. Now, out of my collection of plugins, I regard the Valhalla DSP plugins as definitely flat, also the SineVibes stuff and Jam Origin's MIDI Guitar. Plus my own iOS sequencer app, Fifth Degree (plug, plug).

There are at least 3 type of shadows in flat design. Explanation image attached in case you didn't know.

shadows-types.png

And again, I think these make the design non-flat. But I'll accept that maybe I'm taking an extremely pedantic position here. For what it's worth, the middle example you give seems to be the most flat to my perception. But I'm wondering, based on some of the things you define as flat, whether you define anything less than fully 3D modelled as flat. And I'd disagree with that: a reduced third dimension is still 3D and thus not flat. So anything with panels with shadows is not a flat UI in my book.

But even if we accept your definition of "flat UI", it's kind of missing the technical goal we are going for here, and that is a UI that is drawn and scaleable, and not based on pre-rendered bitmaps. And painting shadows on everything, while technically doable, is something we'd rather not get into right now.

[arseniy2]

Because some do use shadows some do not. But with shadows it still counted as flat(depends on approach).

Also about definitions and speaking technically. Those "shadows" are 2d flat. If it makes illusion for eyes it doesn't mean they make something a 3d. Look at this "shadow" it is just a blurred blackened copy of the object. So technically it is not even a shadow
Attaching example.

Anyway, when there is an update with more stuff I am ready to try something, without using of shadows.

shadow-illusion.png

[arseniy2]

Oh well. Spent some time and changed stuff to no shadow and no round corners. I made some lines under the blocks as you told main problem is not shadows them selves but the technical side. I think it's easy to draw those lines under the blocks and it looks tastier.

And those knobs. A simple trick - just a half of a white circle with 20% alpha. Rotating with the knob. The circle for the knob also devided and have top half slitly brighter. I think looks nice and also a measure feature(for example when you want to copycat knobs from a video or a screenshot)

direct link: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/download/ ... ew&id=7381

P.S.
The elements placed pretty rough. Of course it should be thought out how to place them in good positions.

P.P.S.
The pan has no red line. I thought it might be good to have a different color for such knobs. Or maybe the knob itself could be made slightly different.

sinnah-v2.png

[blurk]

Because some do use shadows some do not. But with shadows it still counted as flat(depends on approach).

Well, to go all Wikipedia on you again: "counted by who?" and "citation needed".

Also about definitions and speaking technically. Those "shadows" are 2d flat. If it makes illusion for eyes it doesn't mean they make something a 3d.

Of course not. Everything rendered on a 2D screen is, by definition, 2D. So it's the illusion of 3D we are debating here...

Look at this "shadow" it is just a blurred blackened copy of the object. So technically it is not even a shadow

...and I assert that even this non-shadow is producing a 3D illusion, rendering the result non-flat.

By the way, I actually find some of your design elements quite attractive. I just don't agree that they meet my definition of flatness (maybe we need a different term to describe this style of GUI if "flat" is so ambiguous / debateable). Nor do they appear to be particularly easy to render in code.

[arseniy2]

Because some do use shadows some do not. But with shadows it still counted as flat(depends on approach).

Well, to go all Wikipedia on you again: "counted by who?" and "citation needed".

Let's say by the market. Google for flat design long shadow, for example.

[blurk]

Well, to go all Wikipedia on you again: "counted by who?" and "citation needed".

Let's say by the market. Google for flat design long shadow, for example.

OK

Recently, there is a little new trend emerging in the design community, which I assume started off when designers were trying to fix iOS 7 outlandish icons. Jeff Escalante, the one who initiate this trend discussion, called it Long Shadow Design.
Source: Hongkiat

Long shadow design is borrowing a lot of the principles of flat design. It could even be considered a form of flat design (or you might call it “almost flat”).
Source: Designmodo

Sounds to me like these are more a reaction to flat design than an example of it, but OK it's a fair point that designers aren't going to always be dogmatic about flat design.

I particularly liked this take on long shadow design, though:

The most silly thing about the long shadow though is when you put it in perspective. Marc Edwards did this a few weeks back and the result was hilarious:

Source: Design your way blog

[liqih]

Because some do use shadows some do not. But with shadows it still counted as flat(depends on approach).

Also about definitions and speaking technically. Those "shadows" are 2d flat. If it makes illusion for eyes it doesn't mean they make something a 3d. Look at this "shadow" it is just a blurred blackened copy of the object. So technically it is not even a shadow
Attaching example.

Now it seems clear, to me al least, why we argued on those terms,
arseniy2 your example with the star was clear.
So I can say that, I and blurk, we use a definition of Flat GUI
that is more restrictive that the one you may find in the market
of web design. Obviously it looks like that in web design the term "Flat Design"
has been extended beyond it's original geometrical meaning
to include all design styles that do not use 3D modeling or
some kind of computer graphic 3D rendering.

Therefore in this web designer lingo (or jargon) it makes
sense to still call "Flat Design" a GUI with shadows,
but from a mathematical point of view that is wrong,
since in mathematic an obejct that is flat can't cast any shadow.
This is not the first time that an industrial sector
stretches the meaning of a single word to define a category
that makes sense in that industrial context.

Quite clear after all, so we should say that NUSofting,
after years of products using GUIs with 3D or shadows, now has switched to
a "flat with no shadows and with no 3D hints" style,
like you can see in Ableton Live for instance.
(we could call it Pure Flat Design)
That's our planned and decided style now.
So we are not going to use for Sinnha GUI shadows of any kind,
nor any 3D hint or illusion made with gradients or low alpha layers.

Please note that this style we started to use with Sinnah
has been chosen and definined by three developers,
and one of them is a professional web graphic designer.
(so it's not something improvised in few days)

But of course Sinnah GUI is not perfect (yet) so we welcome
any suggestion of improvement, with our reserve to evaluate
if the suggestion would fit in the GUI style we have planned.

As I wrote in the first reply, I will consider some of the elements of you examples
and I thank you for those.