Has anyone gotten channel per row to work with Bitwig in MPE mode?

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Specifically I mean that overlapping any two notes on a given row advances the overlapped note to the next midi channel, which then throws off the other rows as well! So if the linnstrument is sending channel 2-9 for example, if you overlap a second note on the lowest row, Bitwig changes the channel of the second note to channel 3 (on the same row, it should stay as channel 2)! Then if you play a note on the next row up, which linnstrument sends as channel 3, Bitwig changes it to channel 4 because it just used channel 3 on the second note on the lower row.

It's like you can't stop Bitwig from changing channels if any incoming notes overlap on the same channel. Channel To is set to "Same", which I had thought preserves the channel that is received. Nope. Only the first note of a given channel. Any second note on the same channel is re-assinged to the next channel. And this seems to happen only once it reaches the instrument, a channel map device doesn't change this (which normally lets you assign incoming channels to a new channels).

I want to use Channel per row on the linnstrument to play bass and guitar that have scripted legato for hammer-ons and hammer-offs (and maybe synths with legato as well). However with Bitwig there seems to be no way to actually keep all the notes of a given row to the same channel when using channel per row if more than one note at a time is played.

Any help would be appreciated. I'll ask the Bitwig support as well but thought someone might have wanted to do this already?

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It doesn’t work, I talked to them in the past and they said it wouldn’t be changed and wasn’t part of the MPE spec:
Multiple notes on one midi channel is not MPE, therefore those can't be translated into Bitwig Note Expressions
Bitwig, against the constitution.

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You would rather use an instrument layer, and load a separate instance for each string in mono mode (non MPE). That has the big advantage, that each “string” can have a slightly different sound...

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Tj Shredder wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:47 pm You would rather use an instrument layer, and load a separate instance for each string in mono mode (non MPE). That has the big advantage, that each “string” can have a slightly different sound...
This is already effectively what I'm doing. Layers of Omnisphere or Trilian or kontakt mono instruments. Doesn't matter if this is different layers in a rack or within a kontakt multiple or OMnisphere multi or whatever. But this has nothing to do with the fact that Bitwig is changing the midi channels sent by the linnstrument. If a note is played overlapping a previous note on the same row, even though it should be the same channel. Bitwig changes it, so a different layer is played, rather than cutting off the previous note on the same channel and layer.

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To do this you need to use a different controller script, so a generic 16 channel controller script. I think I previously had it working like this. You loose the nice note editing I think.

Is that right TJ?
Bitwig, against the constitution.

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BobDog wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:49 pm To do this you need to use a different controller script, so a generic 16 channel controller script. I think I previously had it working like this. You loose the nice note editing I think.

Is that right TJ?
I guess in theory O should be able to turn off mpe mode for the plugin and record regular pitch bend for each channel from each row of the linnstrument right? I tried this but for some reason pitch bend wasn't working for layers beyond the first one. I'll have to trouble shoot this more when I'm with my gear. Bitwig does have automation for pitch bend for all channels so it should work. But I'd really like to be able to use the note editing because then the pitch bends are assigned to each note and move with the note etc., plus much easier to see what new notes the notes get pitched to on the keyboard grid.

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I just tried here with another controller script, nothing but problems so maybe I didn't have it working before!

I got pitchbend working (attached to note) with multi channels (multiple tracks) but couldn't get Z & X working without glitching, no idea what is going on. I have given up trying to get BW to do most things to be honest, it seems like I am constantly banging my head against the wall!
Bitwig, against the constitution.

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Ok, I worked out what the glitching was.

When you move a clip it moves the midi automation.

When you delete a clip it leaves the automation there, so next time you record it glitches all over the place as BW seems to alternate between recorded automation and newly recorded automation.
Bitwig, against the constitution.

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But does your method actually address the issue? You have mpe mode on and you can have two notes overlap that were triggered from a given linnstrument row and the channels stay as they ere sent?

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BobDog wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:14 pm It doesn’t work, I talked to them in the past and they said it wouldn’t be changed and wasn’t part of the MPE spec:
Multiple notes on one midi channel is not MPE, therefore those can't be translated into Bitwig Note Expressions
They are ignorant of the MPE spec 1.0 then. I'm too tired to go through the whole spec now looking for all the relevant bits, but this early quote from page 1 of the spec doc should demonstrate my point:
The MIDI 1.0 Specification already includes a configuration option (a Channel Mode Message) for placing each note on its own Channel called “Omni Off / Mono” (MIDI Mode 4, aka “Mono Mode”). Mono Mode is not the preferred operating mode for MPE, because when every Channel must be monophonic, polyphony is limited to 16 (or fewer) notes.
The MPE Specification defines how to perform per-note control on polyphonic (MIDI Mode 3, “Poly Mode”) Channels, but will also work with synthesizers that support Mono Mode, with some restrictions.

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Of course in reality we see a lot of variations of a subset of MPE, with sometimes incorrect assumptions, applied by a lot of the hardware and software that supports MPE.

A lot of times I dont mind this, and I'm not surprised some of the devilish complexities, nuances and sophisticated but cumbersome aspects of the full MPE spec are often overlooked. The one time I really do mind it is when people at companies use an inaccurate understanding of the MPE spec as justification for some limitation that is actually of their own making. Maybe I will be OK with their limitation, but lets attribute it to the right source and not blame the spec.

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Echoes in the Attic wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:14 pm But does your method actually address the issue? You have mpe mode on and you can have two notes overlap that were triggered from a given linnstrument row and the channels stay as they ere sent?
It seems to work here as long as you don't use an MPE controller script and use multiple tracks where each is set at the controller level to a single midi channel, like you would do in Ableton Live.

You get the notes with pitch bend attached and the Y/Z recorded as CCs. In arranger mode there is the issue that you cannot rerecord without deleting the midi automation though which makes it a pain in the backside.

It's not really worth the pain though I guess.
Bitwig, against the constitution.

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BobDog wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:28 pm
Echoes in the Attic wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:14 pm But does your method actually address the issue? You have mpe mode on and you can have two notes overlap that were triggered from a given linnstrument row and the channels stay as they ere sent?
It seems to work here as long as you don't use an MPE controller script and use multiple tracks where each is set at the controller level to a single midi channel, like you would do in Ableton Live.

You get the notes with pitch bend attached and the Y/Z recorded as CCs. In arranger mode there is the issue that you cannot rerecord without deleting the midi automation though which makes it a pain in the backside.

It's not really worth the pain though I guess.
Ok so to be clear you have MPE off on each track's instrument? So how would this be different from having a rack with multiple instances and recording cc and pitch bend data for separate channels? Or does that not work? I haven't figured out how yet but seems like it should be possible.

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Yes I have each instrument running as if it was being controlled by a single channel.

I'm not sure about BWs ability to record multiple channel CCs to the same track which is why I used multiple tracks, I guess you could then route these to a single instrument track?

In the end though it is all a bit of a bodge!
Bitwig, against the constitution.

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Ok I set up a multi in Omnisphere with 8 mono/legato synths on a single track.

In BW I uses Toms Generic Script.

Use MPE turned off.

PB->Expression turned off.

This works, X/Y/Z are recorded as midi.

When deleting the clip in arranger mode though the midi data is not deleted making it a bit hopeless, it works in clip mode though.

I did try with PB->Expression turned on but no luck :(
Bitwig, against the constitution.

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