ROLI Studio Player

[Roger_Linn]

Hi himalaya,

Thank you for your thoughtful and well-considered contribution to our forum. I must apologize for my post above and hope I did not offend. I should have prefaced my comments not with “the only negative” but rather identified them as my personal preference for LinnStrument players. In truth, I think you’ve done an excellent job and I think we’re in agreement about the need to give keyboard players both new expressive sounds and sounds that aren’t too different than what they expect when played with common keyboard techniques. And on behalf of all LinnStrument players, we’re very pleased that ROLI has created such wonderful synths for use with LinnStrument.

Also, I’m pleased to meet (virtually) the creator of Mellow Duduk.

[Tj Shredder]

Thanks @himalaya for these exceptional insights. What I like especially with both Equator and Cypher 2 is the ability to simply adjust the y-axis curve. In Equator you can‘t miss it, it right in front of you. Most Seaboard optimized sounds just need an adjustment there.
I just start to,dive into the Bitwig synths and there we also have a very direct way of assigning the MPE expressions with all those modulation possibilities... Starting from scratch is definitely the way to go, as most presets are made in the on/off switch mindset...

[afta8]

How do you get this working if you don't have any Roli devices?

[himalaya]

Hi himalaya,

Also, I’m pleased to meet (virtually) the creator of Mellow Duduk.

We already know each other.
See my PM.

Your post was great, and all feedback is greatly welcomed and appreciated.

I was just eager to expand a bit on the topic of MPE/5D sounds. I love this subject.

[afta8]

@himalaya thanks for the detailed write ups, it was a fascinating read and prompted me to try the demo of Cypher2... WOW.. what an amazing set of sounds! On the whole I find they work really well with the Linnstrument without any adjustments.

I'm unable to get Roli Player working as I only have the Linnstrument and there isn't a demo of Equator but I do have the Seaboard 5D App for iPad which I understand uses the Equator sound engine.. what stands out to me about the Cypher2 presets compared to those on the 5D app is the way the Y-Axis/Slide is used. On the 5D app the Y-Axis range on a lot of the presets starts at the bottom with no effect and with maximum effect at the top, kind of like how a traditional mod wheel works, I found this quite difficult to play with the Linnstrument as the sound changes too much over that range, this is perhaps not too much of an issue with the Seaboards as they have a much bigger vertical range.

With Cypher2 however the Y-Axis seems to be set up in a bipolar way where the centre position is the neutral sound and expression is added by going to the top or bottom of the Y-Axis range, quite often going to the top or bottom is the same effect or subtle variations of the extremes. I find this works much better for the Linnstrument and perhaps makes sounds designed for the Seaboard more 'compatible' with the Linnstrument.

Would you say this is an emerging convention in the design of sounds for MPE devices? Will we eventually see MPE sound packs & libraries that are broadly compatible with a range of MPE devices or are we always going to have sounds that are best suited to the device they were designed on?

[himalaya]

Would you say this is an emerging convention in the design of sounds for MPE devices? Will we eventually see MPE sound packs & libraries that are broadly compatible with a range of MPE devices or are we always going to have sounds that are best suited to the device they were designed on?

I'm afraid that there is no getting away from the fact that each MPE instrument/controller needs sounds that are optimised for its 'playing surface'. We now have access to a variety of MPE controllers, but each one is based on very individual approaches and exclusive designs, including the sensors, touch surface, the type of note input, not to mention the actual algorithms dictating how all dimensions are scaled. So, as much as it would be convenient to have one standard for sound design, one that would apply to all MPE controllers, in reality it may not be possible to achieve. Not, if we want our sounds to be well balanced on our MPE instrument of choice.

If I may illustrate it with my personal account, in which I have to mention the Seaboard again. The Seaboard GRAND and the Seaboard RISE have a completely different 'feel'. Both belong to the 'Seaboard' family of MPE instruments, but both are drastically different in how they respond to touch. This in turn, affects how we experience the sound on both, which leads to the ultimate conclusion that each, the Grand and the Rise, require its own set of sounds, tuned to the different playing surfaces.

This also affects MPE sounds and traditional midi keyboards. Simply put, many MPE/5D sounds will not work well on a normal keyboard, and some will not work at all. The aforementioned 'Mellow Duduk' is a perfect examples of a sound that does not work on a normal midi keyboard. This is because this sound relies on the continuous pressure that most MPE controllers support, and when played on a normal midi controller, one that obviously does not have 'continuous pressure' it will not make a sound. The sound in this instance is generated by the continuous pressure level (which as we know, behaves in a much different manner to the old fashioned 'aftertouch'). The sound could work though, if its velocity is active and is assigned to appropriate parameters, which in the case of the Mellow Duduk patch, it is, but to a small degree (if my memory is correct) and so it still may not work successfully (since the main 'body' of the sound, the tone and its sustain, is available on the 'pressure dimension', which a normal midi keyboard does not support).

Other issues come from the use of LIFT (velocity note-off). In my tests, sounds with strong LIFT play badly on a normal midi keyboard, since LIFT is triggered with each release of the key. There can be no control over it on a normal midi keyboard, and so the sound assigned to LIFT simply fires off on each key release. This can be very distracting and annoying.

Having said all that, I'm eager to sit down with the Linnstrument that I have here in the studio and see how much translating/fine tuning is needed for existing presets. Then, the actual surface of the Linnstrument will suggest new sounds, specific only to the Linnstrument. This is where the fun starts.

[Tj Shredder]

I'm unable to get Roli Player working as I only have the Linnstrument...

I can play it without any problem, in the standalone you have to assign the LinnStrument as input of course... In Bitwig, other than with Equator I have to set MPE mode on...

I do have a Seaboard Block as well, but I use it mainly as 27-fader-box with a Max patch I made...

The biggest drawback of the Studio Player software is that there does not seem to be a way to tweak the curves for y-axis and pressure. That makes it completely useless in comparison to the original Equator/Cypher/Strobe...
This is so crucial, as even with original Roli instruments, there are differences between a Grand an Seaboard and a SB Block as himalaya pointed out...
I am even not sure if there is any benefit of using the Player at all. In Bitwig I have a universal way of organizing sounds, and there is as well VIP and Komplete Kontrol, which are universal as well (I mean they support any vst instrument...)

[afta8]

I can play it without any problem, in the standalone you have to assign the LinnStrument as input of course... In Bitwig, other than with Equator I have to set MPE mode on...

I can't get as far as installing the player software, after installing Roli Connect and running it there is nothing shown in the apps section, I'm guessing you had the Seaboard connected when you installed it so it must have detected it and unlocked the apps to install.. the relevant page on the Roli website also says it's for Blocks and Seaboard owners..

No matter though, I have purchased Cypher 2 and that will keep me busy for a while I'm blown away at how good it is, I did not expect the kind of physical modelling sounds in it to be coming from an FM synth. Hats off to Himalaya and the gang! Whilst the Seaboard is not for me I am impressed with how Roli are investing in all aspects of MPE

[afta8]

Having said all that, I'm eager to sit down with the Linnstrument that I have here in the studio and see how much translating/fine tuning is needed for existing presets. Then, the actual surface of the Linnstrument will suggest new sounds, specific only to the Linnstrument. This is where the fun starts.

After experiencing your work in Cypher 2 I would love to see what you come up with for the Linnstrument, it has certainly inspired me to deconstruct factory patches in Cypher 2 and create new ones optimised for the Linnstrument. I also have Falcon and Bitwig but have found the Cypher 2 stock sounds the most fun to play compared to the other two.

The main area I find myself tweaking is the Y-Axis/Slide response, the limited range on the Linnstrument doesn't translate well for Seaboard optimised sounds and it is difficult to apply pressure without also accidently affecting the Y-Axis.. that said my playing technique could do with some improvement also!

[mbsq]

Too bad you must register ROLI hardware before being able to use the Studio Player, even though it's compatible with any MPE input.

[himalaya]

Having said all that, I'm eager to sit down with the Linnstrument that I have here in the studio and see how much translating/fine tuning is needed for existing presets. Then, the actual surface of the Linnstrument will suggest new sounds, specific only to the Linnstrument. This is where the fun starts.

After experiencing your work in Cypher 2 I would love to see what you come up with for the Linnstrument, it has certainly inspired me to deconstruct factory patches in Cypher 2 and create new ones optimised for the Linnstrument. I also have Falcon and Bitwig but have found the Cypher 2 stock sounds the most fun to play compared to the other two.

The main area I find myself tweaking is the Y-Axis/Slide response, the limited range on the Linnstrument doesn't translate well for Seaboard optimised sounds and it is difficult to apply pressure without also accidently affecting the Y-Axis.. that said my playing technique could do with some improvement also!

Hey, thank you for the compliment. You are on the right path with those curves. This is the very first thing I'd look at as well. Cypher2 gives a lot of scope here, both with the curve itself, but also the 'slew' parameter, which I find is most useful when used on the 'pressure' dimension.

[Ou_Tis]

Windows Beta just released....

[machinesworking]

I'm just downloading this after owning all three synths etc. I'm surprised that it doesn't seem possible to open the individual plug in GUIs and tweak the presets etc. from within Studio? Seems like a big miscalculation to me, I love seeing all the settings on the Roli from the interface, but I rarely leave a sound alone when I use it in my own music.