Music and the Music Industry: Career or passionate hobby?

[BobDog]

@John the Savage

I disagree slightly, you can become quite competent without the theory but with a lot of practise.

I do think the theory puts people off, music theory lessons and books in my eyes put people off playing music. Something with a fairly simple mathematical foundation is overblown into complexity, the layout of the piano doesn't help either as that is often someones introduction to playing and theory.

Of course people are also put of by maths as well, which is more of a shame.

What I do think is very important is listening, learning how to listen to music and play along with it to me makes someone a competent musician in my eyes. You hum it and I'll play it type of thing.

[SteveElbows]

The one thing that makes me envious of traditional instruments is the amount of strcutured learning material, practice routines etc, available for instruments that have been around for a very long time. I know some of it can be translated to the Linnstrument, but its more hurdles.

[tbeltrans]

If we consider a group of people (i.e. those interested in the Linnstrument as being discussed here), as individuals with different ways learning and taking in information, we will likely find that some pick up music via listening/watching, others by learning to understand what they are doing via theory, and probably most with varying degrees of a combination of these.

I have observed among guitar, as well as keyboard, players, that some seem to favor their ears, while others, their eyes for learning. What I am referring to is that some seem to lean more toward learning off of recordings or from other players, while others seem to favor learning off of TAB (guitar) or standard notation (piano, classical guitar …). Then, there are many who eventually end up learning from both approaches.

I have known folks who really struggle with trying to learn to read standard notation, but seem to be able to "hear" music more naturally, while others may struggle with trying to hear even the simplest of pieces, but can play fairly sophisticated scores of standard notation.

Music theory can help the "ear" player, as but one example, because knowing what chords are generally used in a given key can help put boundaries on the "hunt and peck" aspect of finding those chords used in a recording we are trying to learn. However, there are many who have learned by ear and the only theory they really know is that the same chords continually show up together in song after song, rather than having gotten that from a book.

I have read that music theory is helpful to sight readers for memorization because being able to understand how a piece of music is put together, can help that person to "block" the music mentally into sections based on chordal movement.

Though I can read, but not sight read (i.e. in real time, on time) well, since it was never important to me to develop that skill, I can learn by ear fairly well. I find being able to do both to work better than only having one or the other. I taught myself diatonic theory, but have not gone into the esoteric theory of the musicologist. All that had any importance to me is what mattered on the bandstand, and diatonic theory seems to have been more than sufficient.

To me, it has always seemed that if we learn what our own strengths are, and leverage those, we might get farther, faster, than we might otherwise, rather than allowing others to dictate how we "should" learn to express ourselves musically.

Tony

[telecode]

Well, here's my theory on the topic of learning a "real" instrument. I play string based instruments like guitars and lapsteels and mandolins fairly well. I play piano keyboards very average. I have never had a lesson in my life other than my uncle teaching me how to tune the guitar in standard tuning. I picked up everyone I learned from listening to music, records and the occasional article in a music magazine. It's good and its' bad in the same way as it's good and it's bad to not have a formal broad education and just be self taught in anything else in life.

If you are completely self taught, you only know things and solutions to problems as you stumble upon them and are exposed to them in your own unique learning journey. What you lack in the ability to see things and problems that are lurking just around the corner that you haven't been directly exposed to yet. A broad based university education gives you that ability. It gives you accumulated background and theory on how things work so you can approach a problem from many different angles vs just approaching them from only one angle. Its I guess like a tool box analogy. If you have a small toolbox and only one hammer and one screwdriver, you use them on every single problem you encounter. If you have a toolbox with a lot of different specialized tools, you have various options to use different tools for different tasks. (As anyone who is into working on their own cars knows -- i love working on my cars -- there is a huge difference if your ability to fix a mechanical problem if you have the right $100 tool in your garage. The problem with cars is, you have to keep fuggin go out and keep buying a $100 tool to fix a problem, and then if just sits there in your garage forever to never be used again.. )

Anyways, back to music. I learned from listening to the stuff I listened to so my playing style is very very closely linked to the styles of music and artists I liked as I was growing up and lo and behold I sound a little like them and my approach to every musician song sort of comes from the nuances of those musical styles. If you want a bluesly folkey rock sounding guitar thing on your tune, i can pull it off quite well. But put me in an improvisational jazz band or some sort of broadway show what requires some sort of old school big band jazz stuff .. and I am screwed and pretty much useless as a player. A guy who went through a formal musical program and can read music and knows theory and all styles would be able to fit in nicely in country, pop, jazz, rock, you name it.

But. I do feel there is a down side to formal training in music. This is based on my experience being in bands and through countless auditions. If you are putting a band together and trying to get people together to make music that are all on the same wave length, the formally trained guys rarely worked out in auditions. They were sort of all over the place and there was no human vibe. (At least when it comes to feel for what everyone in the same room and space is trying to play and where they are going). Feel and vibe in a room is really important. For example, if you have 4 guys that are into Iron Maiden and are trying to put together an Iron Maiden type thingy, it really helps if the guy they are auditioning is also into Iron Maiden or Whitesnake or what not .. instead of some guy that comes from some formal music program and all that's going through his mind is notes and staffs while everyone else is head banging away. :L-)

[c0nsilience]

With formal training, much like formal education, sometimes you have to unlearn to really develop your own voice/style. Many of the musicians that I admired growing up had zero formal training so they never knew what the 'right' way to do something was or where the boundaries were located. It can make for interesting and creative results.

I can read music and play by ear. I'm not a session player, so 9 times out of 10, I prefer playing by ear.

[harryupbabble]

Jimmy Page was/is in the music industry as a very busy and in-demand session player. Later, he wrote a bunch of songs. Maybe he didn't plagiarized all the songs he wrote?

https://forums.ledzeppelin.com/topic/17 ... ce-guitar/

Jimmy Page said:

“I don’t just sit down and play scales and things. I should have done but I never did. I can’t play a scale. You think I’m kidding but I’m not. I can’t.”

“the acoustic guitar for a start and it’s usually in a tuning. I sort of change tunings around a bit and I’m searching for new chords and shapes and things.”

“I push [myself] as far as I can go within the instrument at that point in time.”

“It’s just try to do whatever you can do on an instrument and give it 100 percent of what you can do with the time you have to do it.”

[tapper mike]

So here's my story.
Yes I did have some pro years....

I was a radio announcer (DJ) Back in the 70's at 15 for my local high school radio station. At the same time as going to school I'd write copy for a small radio station. One of my friends sang and his brother played drums. They said it would be cool if I could learn guitar and we could form a band. My dad disapproved of this so I saved my money and hid my guitar in the garage. I was dumb in the fact that I didn't want to pay for lessons. So with guitarists on every street corner I'd go up.. talk to them for a bit learn how to tune a guitar and watch them play. I couldn't jam with them per say. But I'd hold in my head what I learned and take it back to try and work things out. Within a few months I was in my first band and I'd be accompanying various would be singers every chance I got.

After playing out with various pop rock punk bands I knew that something was missing in my playing. I'd hear things that in one sense worked but in another confounded me as to how it worked. I bought a little book on sight reading and then followed up trying to educate myself on theory. The funny thing was that while I had a lot of theory stacked up I really couldn't make it work. Finally I started taking lessons. I went through a few teachers before finding the right one. Within six months I'd learned more than 6 years on my own. I was cooking for a living and picking up gigs where I could in local cover bands. I could never resolve myself to just playing out for a living. I needed regular income. I went to school for audio engineering hoping I could find work as a second.

Finally I looked at my life and said something has to give. I bust my arse 7 days a week with the only two days off a year being Thanksgiving and Christmas. I landed a gig with a long circuit band. They played at resorts mostly along the eastern seaboard. It should have been great.. it wasn't. We'd play weekend gigs then travel to the next town stopping at rest stops sleeping in a cargo van for the weekdays and staying at the hotel for the shows. The crowds were great and there was always an afterparty that went on to dawn. But I really wasn't Mr Personality. I'd thought about going back to my old job cooking when we happened to have a gig at an upscale resort on a coastal barrier island off the gulf. While I was there I put in applications for a cook and.... Not only did one place have a position available it included employee housing. Win,

I loved the island life. I loved cooking. I decided that I'd cook at night and put music on hold. The only aspect of "Fantasy Island" I didn't enjoy was that the party never ended. When your in employee housing it's like living in a dorm. After work is done at the end of a night I'd rather go to sleep and spend my morning hours on the beach or in a boat or going to the mainland. So I saved my money got an apartment and another job on another island. Unlike the previous this place had no beaches. All seawall. The local industries were fishing and farming. It did have one aspect that I liked... quicker/easier access to the mainland.

I started looking around for things to occupy my days so I got a job as a second engineer at a local studio. Back then they actually paid staff as opposed to having interns work for free forever. I'd set up rooms move mic's around etc but rarely if ever was I allowed to touch the board. Granted I studied on SSL's from the mowtown masters and knew my way around a mixer. None the less it was back into the industry. On my nights off I'd sit in for jazz jam sessions. Eventually it got around that I could play and read and I started doing studio work from time to time as a musician. Mostly jingles. Much of gigging in the studio comes down to "looking the part" as having the gear. It was like that old drug commercial. I buy more guitars so I can get more gigs so I can buy more guitars. I still cooked full time mind you. When I settled in FLA I actually had a plan to save my money. Move to CA and go to GIT then become a big time studio musician. Long story short that didn't happen.

What did happen was I got a yearning for synth technology. I'd tried and tried and tried to learn the piano to no avail. I'd spend hours and hours yet "the magic" wasn't there. So I bought every guitar synth on the market believing in all the hype.
I made it work for me the best I could but I was always disappointed with the outcome. Some musicians and audiences loved it, most hated it.

Eventually I didn't follow my dreams. I came back to Michigan. Started cooking had a lot of gear and I decided to do what a lot of musicians with a lot of gear and experience do. Open a Studio. A real studio. Rented space sold off 100 guitars (yes 100) went deep in debt paying for gear that would appeal to potential clients. Advertised and.... almost nothing. I started producing hip hop artists because they were the only ones who would pay. Forget grunge / alt bands. Lost my arse on the studio. Still paying off the debt decades later because I wasn't smart about things.

One day I'm at a guitar store with a CD in hand looking at power monitors for my studio. The CD was a compilation of artists and my own music. Customers are there and looking at me listening with me. They could care less about the music and more about the insert. I did the graphics and they wanted me to do design / printing work for them. That lead to websites for bands and bars. I studied as much as I could about design and back end. Then started to write which got me published as a freelancer in various trade websites. Eventually got into flash, and started working for a flash based software firm called Swishzone. Best job I've ever had in my life. Handling support, writing help files, doing tutorials and screencasts. Apple killed flash and with it went the company I worked for.

About sight reading notation. There was a time where I could sight read nearly cold. It was what I was paid to do. I'd go through the score with a pencil in hand when every I saw a chord notated and jot it down. The rest was a matter of experience and winging it which I could pull off. Well when that stopped (near the end of the 80's) I stopped reading notation. When I needed to learn a guitar cover I could do it by ear faster. Sure I know keys and I can fudge my way along but it becomes a slow process if you aren't "living to read" Due to the possibilites of the LinnStrument layout tab is not the answer. Which is why I'm using courseware (tutor-ware) for piano based on notation as a means to develop my linnstrument playing. It's a game like environment If you hit the wrong note or miss a note that affects your score negatively. Everything is a test. Even when in "Practice mode"

Two things I'd like to pass on about learning the Linnstrument via notation.
1. Don't look at your hands. Try as hard as possible to concentrate on the sheet and learn to trust your hands. If you must look glance down don't tilt your head down. It takes your focus away from reading.

2. Try if at all possible to look a few bars ahead of where you are playing at.

3. When you look at single note lines in sheet music. Concentrate on the direction of the notes not the individual notes one at a time.

4. Practice daily. Start by learning the stuff you need to learn not the stuff you already know. That's practice, not goofing around. When your done with your lesson take a short break before you start dabbling. This lets things sink into your subconscious more. If you internalize more then you have to think less.

Theory and performance walk hand in hand. As an example... I know Coltrane theory on an intellectual level. I can play Giant Steps and a few other songs. I can follow Coltrane changes. What I don't do regularly is practice the Nicolas Slonimsky method of scale patterns. I hate it. I've always found it stiff when moving around chord changes. I tried to memorize them. I find it very stiff. I'm a bigger fan of Charlie Parker. Because I don't "live" the scale pattern method I can't recreate it well on my own. I'm more about Parker.

My point is this. You don't know theory until you've worked out the theory playing through examples and... improvising / composing using the theory. It doesn't matter if it's Parallel Minor, flat 5 substitution, Hungarian minor or any other theorem. None of which are required for reading notation however they start to make sense more in analysis if you can read music.

So yeah, Passionate hobby these days.

[Roger_Linn]

I find this discussion to be fascinating, and thanks to all for contributing. I enjoy the views expressed, especially about the subject of training vs. self-learning. But more important, I enjoy the personal stories. Sometimes when I look at the list of (now over 1800) LinnStrument owners, I think about how each of these people has a unique story. It's a pleasure to learn some of those stories.

[tbeltrans]

I find this discussion to be fascinating, and thanks to all for contributing. I enjoy the views expressed, especially about the subject of training vs. self-learning. But more important, I enjoy the personal stories. Sometimes when I look at the list of (now over 1800) LinnStrument owners, I think about how each of these people has a unique story. It's a pleasure to learn some of those stories.

Hey Roger,

Thanks for your recent help with changing the surface on my early Linnstrument! Unheard of customer service, to be sure. I learned that I may THINK I did it right, but that doesn't mean it IS right. It works just fine now. Three tries is the charm.

I am in the process of experimenting with using my Linnstrument with my Digitone. That thread here was rather inspiring since I have one of those laying around here too.

Anyway, I think the Linnstrument is simply genius. But, then, you have a history of genius goodies.

Tony

[c0nsilience]

Not that I am biased either way, but if you can't read music...

















...you're in pretty good company!

[John the Savage]

@John the Savage

I disagree slightly, you can become quite competent without the theory but with a lot of practise.

I do think the theory puts people off, music theory lessons and books in my eyes put people off playing music. Something with a fairly simple mathematical foundation is overblown into complexity, the layout of the piano doesn't help either as that is often someones introduction to playing and theory.

Of course people are also put of by maths as well, which is more of a shame.

What I do think is very important is listening, learning how to listen to music and play along with it to me makes someone a competent musician in my eyes. You hum it and I'll play it type of thing.

I see a lot of people here questioning the importance of understanding music theory and the value of being able to read notated music. I get it. That is to say, at very least I understand the sentiment behind this attitude, and can see how the concept of music theory might be off-putting to some people. However, I think my point is being misconstrued. First of all, reading music and understanding music theory are not mutually exclusive. Whether you know how to read notation or not, everything you learn on an instrument constitutes theory; and by that, I mean anything you’ve come to genuinely understand. If you can apply it within a musical context to command an intended result, it’s theory.

The same is true of what you said about listening to music and playing along – this still requires comprehension, otherwise you’re just getting lucky; and frankly, it’s usually painfully obvious when the latter is the case.

You have to consider my perspective. By nature of my job, I'm primarily an improv player. That is to say, I'm always being thrown under the proverbial bus, having to rely primarily on my ears. Hell, I personally avoid reading music whenever possible, but the skill remains an asset, without question. Knowledge is power, as they say; and more importantly, when it comes to musical expression, knowledge is freedom!

Obviously, learning music theory didn’t diminish my love of music. Hence what I said about it taking a certain type of individual… And it’s my opinion that structured learning and the academic side of music are not to blame for generic, uncreative music, or complacency; nor is the opposite true. There are good teachers and there are bad teachers, and the same can be said of students. Having a comprehensive understanding of something is never a bad thing; anymore so than could science disprove spirituality or vice versa.

Getting back to the title of the thread, perhaps this draws attention to the disparity between being a “career” musician versus being a “passionate hobbyist”: i.e. as a professional musician, there’s simply no room for guesswork, and the more you know, the more you’re worth. That’s not to say I never make mistakes by the way (smirk)... Ahem! As a hobbyist, on the other hand, you’re free to rest on your laurels, so to speak, and that’s okay. Either way, I always encourage people to learn as much theory as they can, because I’ve seen the many benefits that can come of it, both personally and professionally.

Now, with respect to the list of famous players the OP has referenced above, I think much is being overlooked there. It’s easy to say that Eddie Van Halen can’t read music, and use that as an excuse or rationalization for one’s own lack of knowledge, ambition, or contempt for structured learning; however, those players know A LOT more about music theory than they might let on. Why? Well, because they’re rock stars, and they know that school ain’t cool (wink). Regardless, in reality, if and when an artist does come along who happens to possess a raw talent (let’s say a gifted voice for example), but they are not otherwise well-versed in the technical aspects of music; ultimately, they must surround themselves with people who are accomplished musicians and engineers. Pick your favourite producer and put their name here: _____. And you can be sure, either way, that Eddie Van Halen has put in his ten-thousand hours and taken music theory to task; never mind his extraordinary chops!

I reiterate that I think music is for everyone, and I don't think you have to be an expert to get fulfillment out of playing an instrument. It’s a very personal journey to be sure; one to be enjoyed I would hope. But understanding music theory is very empowering, and the more you learn, the better a musician you'll be. Try it, you'll see (wink).

Cheers!

[SJ_Digriz]

However, if there's one thing I do find curious, it's that alternative musical interfaces, in general, do seem to attract people who are hoping to somehow sidestep the trials and tribulations of learning to play a traditional instrument. To that end, they invariably find out that all roads lead to Rome,

I had a guitar book years ago (Tedesco?) that answered the infamous "how do I get awesome at guitar" .. it was kind of running gag in the book. It would give something simple on a page .. then on the next page "Practice your scales". something simple .. "practice your scales" ... something simple "practice your scales".

Basically as you say, no real shortcuts for most people.

[SJ_Digriz]

I suppose that, given the ribbon controller on the CS-80 was also an important part of what that synth could do, I find this scenario a good test of 'resistance to MPE'

What is most curious to me about this particular bit is that the ribbon controller on the CS-80 was relative position reference to the last note played. It's a simple, extremely musical connection to using a ribbon controller. I've never understood why that isn't the default for every ribbon controller that came after it. But like poly AT, it seems the masses don't grock it. Also, so few ever experienced it because of the cost, that maybe that's why things like this become lost.

[SJ_Digriz]

by the way, to answer the OT .. indulgent hobbyist who makes a couple sheckles from time to time on the side. I love instruments as artistic creations as much as music. I consider the Linnstrument and the other stuff Roger and the rest of the engineers that actually created these things we beat on as artists. Engineering is art .. I happened to end up in engineering in a different field for various reasons. But, I've never lost my fascination with instruments, acoustic, electric, analog, digital or hybrid.

Suffice it to say that I think "theory" is misrepresented as a simply academic domain. Those none music theory dudes/duddettes in the pictures practiced their asses off, studied other peoples approaches in intricate detail, and many of them actually learned how to write music just so they could get paid as the author.

[c0nsilience]

There are two things that I learned fairly early on about music:

1. Practice makes permanent. (thanks to my Jr. High band director for this concept)

2. Most people quit before they get good.