Bitwig 3+ is an awesome modular FM playground.

[V0RT3X]

I've been diving a bit into the grid, and wow the phase modulation options are crazy! This is basically a FM synthesis lab where you can do so many things all at once. Bitwig feels like one big synth now, and it feels like the possibilities are pretty much endless.

I'm also impressed with how LOW the cpu us when using the grid, it's pretty outstanding!

I'd still like to see a wavetable Oscillator for the Grid so we can load in wavetables, but wow this is already so amazing.



Great Job Bitwig!

I attached a screen grab of a little noise maker I made. I'm basically just scratching the surface, there is still so much to learn.


A few Grid tips.

If you want to use a different clock rate for each of the sequencers, make sure to disable the device phase and use something else to drive each sequencer. You can easily make a polyrhythm sequencer with Bitwig..

[antic604]

I'd still like to see a wavetable Oscillator for the Grid so we can load in wavetables, but wow this is already so amazing.

Sampler oscillator in Cycles mode is a wavetable synth and actually loads Serum wavetables:

https://youtu.be/aWFvXSbsbyM

[V0RT3X]

I'd still like to see a wavetable Oscillator for the Grid so we can load in wavetables, but wow this is already so amazing.

Sampler oscillator in Cycles mode is a wavetable synth and actually loads Serum wavetables:

https://youtu.be/aWFvXSbsbyM

Awesome, thanks I'll have a look at it.

[Yokai]

The "Cycles" mode of Sampler is only quasi-wavetable-like and does NOT read typical wavetable metadata to correctly set the frame size and scanning interpolation among the frames.

I've argued the case for making Bitwig's Sampler compatible with standard Serum and Phase Plant (and others) wavetables and actually scanning/interpolating them correctly. But the devs have essentially told me "Nope. We didn't intend for Cycles mode to be like that."

So unless Bitwig decides to make a true Wavetable module for the grid (and/or true Wavetable Synth instrument device), you probably aren't going to be that satisfied trying to use your extensive wavetable library in The Grid. I'm not. I don't even try. When I need that wavetable sound and behavior I'll reach for Serum or Phase Plant.

[antic604]

The "Cycles" mode of Sampler is only quasi-wavetable-like and does NOT read typical wavetable metadata to correctly set the frame size and scanning interpolation among the frames.

I've argued the case for making Bitwig's Sampler compatible with standard Serum and Phase Plant (and others) wavetables and actually scanning/interpolating them correctly. But the devs have essentially told me "Nope. We didn't intend for Cycles mode to be like that."

I think you're confusing 2 things. Reading a file and recognising repeating cycles is in place in Sampler, either from the metadata (added in 3.1) or manually by finding the root by right-clicking on the sample (since 2.4). However, interpolation between existing frames is an proprietary method of the VST (Serum, PP or Falcon do that differently) and there's no standard and thus no metadata saying it should be done in such or such way.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you said?

[pdxindy]

Serum doesn't even have interpolation between frames...

And yes, the Grid is an excellent FM playground!

[sth]

The "Cycles" mode of Sampler is only quasi-wavetable-like and does NOT read typical wavetable metadata to correctly set the frame size and scanning interpolation among the frames.

I've argued the case for making Bitwig's Sampler compatible with standard Serum and Phase Plant (and others) wavetables and actually scanning/interpolating them correctly. But the devs have essentially told me "Nope. We didn't intend for Cycles mode to be like that."

I think you're confusing 2 things. Reading a file and recognising repeating cycles is in place in Sampler, either from the metadata (added in 3.1) or manually by finding the root by right-clicking on the sample (since 2.4). However, interpolation between existing frames is an proprietary method of the VST (Serum, PP or Falcon do that differently) and there's no standard and thus no metadata saying it should be done in such or such way.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you said?

Another thing to note is that Yokai got this information quite some time ago, and it doesn't seem up-to-date with the 3.1 changes (those changes surprised me, too).

[V0RT3X]

Serum doesn't even have interpolation between frames...

And yes, the Grid is an excellent FM playground!

I always thought these options allowed for WT Interpolation, I guess I didn't really pay attention.

[antic604]

Serum doesn't even have interpolation between frames...

If you give Serum a sample that has less than 256 single-cycle frames, then it can interpolate between those to get to 256 unique frames. That's it (I think).

[pdxindy]

Serum doesn't even have interpolation between frames...

And yes, the Grid is an excellent FM playground!

I always thought these options allowed for WT Interpolation, I guess I didn't really pay attention.

I should have said realtime interpolation.

[brownerthanu]

Serum doesn't even have interpolation between frames...

And yes, the Grid is an excellent FM playground!

Serum doesn’t have interpolation but they do smart smart processing to reduce artifacts between frames. That’s part of why it sounds so good. Interpolation can be though of as just one approach for how to reduce artifacts.

I agree with Yokai, additional work needs to be done for Bitwig to be a fully fledged wavetable synth that plays well with the larger ecosystem.

[Yokai]

Another thing to note is that Yokai got this information quite some time ago, and it doesn't seem up-to-date with the 3.1 changes (those changes surprised me, too).

Nope. I last had this "debate" with the Bitwig devs DURING the beta period for 3.1, because with that change they introduced (reading the CLM block for key metadata) they came SO close to making Sampler able to scan and playback a wavetable from either Serum or PP with the same frame size.

And to Antic, I'll simply point out that you can take ANY Serum wavetable and drop it into Phase Plant and it will sound and play exactly the same. Drop that same wavetable into Bitwig's Sampler and NOPE. It's window scanning size will cover at least two frames at a time (and drop in volume as you approach the last couple handfuls of frames in the wavetable). Mostly though, it will just sound fuzzy and have a metallic ringing edge to everything.

[Yokai]

And.... Just to prove my point, here are some relevant extracts from the 3.1 beta discussion in question. My first opening bug/FR post, followed by Bitwig's final answer. I'll leave out the intermediate stuff.

Hi Bitwig team! Thanks VERY much for trying to make the Cycles mode of the Sampler function as an accurate, user-friendly "wavetable oscillator".

You made some great progress towards this goal in 3.1 beta 1, but as of beta 1 there are still FOUR important issues. If you can address ALL FOUR of these issues before the production release of 3.1, you will have given all Bitwig users a TRUE alternative to Serum, Phase Plant, VSP-Avenger, Dune, SynthMaster, and so on.

In all of the above-named synths, the SAME wavetable loaded into each one will SOUND exactly the same and INTERPOLATE exactly the same (assuming any Phase and Random Phase settings are at zero). But even now in 3.1, Bitwig does not yet SOUND nor INTERPOLATE the same as all the others! THIS WILL PREVENT USER ADOPTION. For example, when I need a "basic wavetable sound" I reach for Serum. When I need a "modular wavetable sound" I reach for Phase Plant. I don't consider using Sampler or PolyGrid for these use cases, because your do not set your window size in a standard way, and you do not interpolate among frames in a standard way.

On the bright side, I think you are now VERY close to handling wavetables in a standard way and having parity with all the other wavetable synths, but you need to fix these FOUR lingering issues to achieve parity. (I demo all four in this unlisted YouTube video.) I think all these issues will be EASY fixes for you.

ISSUE 1: Your cycled playback spans two full frames. Or maybe 1.n frames. You are absolutely, positively NOT playing only a single frame at a time when the POS knob is static. The resulting sound that the user hears is an ABSOLUTE SHOWSTOPPER. It makes Bitwig completely unusable and untrustworthy as providing "a wavetable synth". We want to hear ONLY ONE FRAME, but instead we hear THE COMBINATION OF TWO FRAMES. As a result, NO standard wavetable sounds the same in Bitwig as it does in all the above-named synths.

ISSUE 2: The output volume level of the wavetable drops drastically as you approach the last frame in the wavetable. All the way up to the start of the 2nd-to-last frame the volume is constant. But as soon as you pass into the middle of the 2nd-to-last frame, the volume starts rapidly attenuating. This is further evidence of Issue 1.

ISSUE 3: The POS playhead can be pushed all the way to the very end of the wavetable. None of the other above-named synths do this. They all STOP at the start of the very last frame in the table. Bitwig should do this too. It is unreasonable to expect your users to meticulouly create a macro for the POS knob and set a 4- or 5 decimal place value on the scale of that macro knob just to ensure that the playhead stops precisely at the start of the last frame.

ISSUE 4: If a wavetable's CLM metadata "Interpolation Type" flag = 0 (meaning "no interpolation"), you are ignoring it and doing (crossfading?) interpolation anyway. This is a huge problem for small wavetables meant to switch among specific waveshapes, such as the "Analog > Basic Shapes" wavetable in Serum. If the interpolation type is 0, your playhead needs to jump precisely to the start of each new frame in the wavetable as you move the POS knob, and NOT crossfade betweeen the frames as you're doing now.

--------
Further detail if you're interested:

Clearly, all of the above-named popular synths are reading and using the CLM metadata "flag" that specifies the window size (number of frames), AND they are reading and using the interpolation type, where:

0 = no interpolation (which means the scanning window will "precisely jump" to the start of each new frame instead of cross-fading or spectral morphing among the frames)

1 = linear crossfade interpolation

2, 3, 4 = spectral morphing interpolation

If you want more information on the metadata flags, this KVR thread sheds some insight directly from Steve Duda (developer of Serum). And I'm sure Steve is very approachable if you want to contact him directly. If you need an introduction I can arrange that for you as he's within my broad circle of producer/engineer/developer colleagues.

And the final response....

Thanks for your input, but this is most likely a bit of a misunderstanding.
We're not trying to turn the Cycle mode in sampler into being wavetable oscillator or a replacement for such.
It is its own sampler play mode and certainly different in approach, design and resulting sound compared to a standard wavetable oscillator.
We just added support for the common wavetable wav metadata to improve the hassle of setting up the pitch correctly for those, as they can be a nice source for sounds using the Cycle play mode.
All the further aspects you mention are nothing we plan to address for the sampler device and its underlaying tech. They would be taken care of a lot better by a dedicated wavetable instrument device, which might be something interesting we could do in a future version.

[pdxindy]

That settles it though... they have no intention of turning Cycles mode into a regular wavetable implementation. Good to know.

[Yokai]

Yup.

On the bright side, they left open the possibility of a Wavetable instrument some day. And if they do that, they can probably also easily stick a "module" version of that same thing in The Grid, just like they did with Sampler.

So...... maybe someday.