Why does FM in the grid or via modulators sound so drastically different than in FM-4 or any 3rd party FM synth...
If I got 2 sine waves at the same pitch and modulating 1 with 2 the result sounds quite useable during the whole modulation range with any FM synth...
If I do the same via modulators or in the grid it is not comparable at all... mostly it´s just messy noise with some rare useable results at certain modulation points...
What´s the difference here??
Latest News: Bitwig Updates Bitwig Studio to 5.2
FM The Grid vs. FM-4
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- KVRist
- 401 posts since 27 Mar, 2019 from stuck in Russia
If you insert OSC signal into Pitch input of the other OSC, then you get exponential FM, not linear one.
since there's no linear FM input in oscillators of Grid, try outputting OSC to modulator and modulate semitone offset parameter of the other OSC (or same OSC if you want feedback FM, but that's going to sound very noisy).
since there's no linear FM input in oscillators of Grid, try outputting OSC to modulator and modulate semitone offset parameter of the other OSC (or same OSC if you want feedback FM, but that's going to sound very noisy).
Last edited by x.iso on Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4468 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
No...
Ok..., that sounds to me as would a traditional FM synth use linear FM, right...?
Any way to simulate this with the grid or with modulators???
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- KVRist
- 401 posts since 27 Mar, 2019 from stuck in Russia
I've edited the post with potential answer above.
One other idea is to use LFO in kilohertz range, and modulate it's rate input, but it's tricky to set up.
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- KVRist
- 401 posts since 27 Mar, 2019 from stuck in Russia
nevermind, both methods seem to produce different results from FM-4 way of modulation. I agree that it's strange decision not to include linear FM input.
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- KVRist
- 401 posts since 27 Mar, 2019 from stuck in Russia
Well, seems like Bitwig representative says that Phase Modulation is equivalent to linear FM, so I guess that's why we don't have linear FM input. But they are different and it become more apparent with mixing different waves, like saw modulating sine and such. Guess we need to send emails to request addition of linear FM or at least checkbox in inspector panel to make pitch input behave like linear frequency input.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4468 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
Oh, ok... that´s what you meant... I already tried it, but to me it´s less aggressive than linear FM ... it doesn´t sound the same by far... it sounds like... phase modulation...
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- KVRist
- 401 posts since 27 Mar, 2019 from stuck in Russia
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.. They should have enabled OSC selector/morpher to not get people confused, normally classic FM synths operate with sines.
EDIT: just remembered that there's windowed mode where it shows supposedly pure sine, but it isn't really pure.
EDIT: just remembered that there's windowed mode where it shows supposedly pure sine, but it isn't really pure.
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- KVRist
- 235 posts since 13 Dec, 2016 from Tucson, AZ, USA
The type of FM synthesis that we often call FM is actual phase modulation and would be done by modulating the phase port.
You do not have to be limited to sine waves. You can sometimes get good results with other waveforms and or noise, depending on your needs.
You do not have to be limited to sine waves. You can sometimes get good results with other waveforms and or noise, depending on your needs.
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- KVRian
- 1293 posts since 7 Dec, 2017
FM-4 is a terrible "FM" synth imo. Can it really even be called an "FM" (phase mod, DX7 ect) synth?
Phase-4 is a far better FM-4.
Phase-4 is a far better FM-4.
-JH
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- KVRAF
- 25435 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
Yes, it's true Phase-4 is a much better synth... however, FM-4 is simple, makes a decent variety of basic sounds and is easy on CPU.JHernandez wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:57 am FM-4 is a terrible "FM" synth imo. Can it really even be called an "FM" (phase mod, DX7 ect) synth?
Phase-4 is a far better FM-4.
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- KVRist
- 132 posts since 16 May, 2008 from Germany
I always read "linear" or "exponential"... did really nobody realize two Math function in 'TheGrid called "Log" and "Power"? Using them you can transfer a linear input signal to an exponential output and vice versa (linear to logarithmic). So it's nonsense to claim that as a barrier.x.iso wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:22 pm Well, seems like Bitwig representative says that Phase Modulation is equivalent to linear FM, so I guess that's why we don't have linear FM input. But they are different and it become more apparent with mixing different waves, like saw modulating sine and such. Guess we need to send emails to request addition of linear FM or at least checkbox in inspector panel to make pitch input behave like linear frequency input.
And BTW... the problem isn't the modulation itself (it works, I tested it several times using phase in as well as pitch in - not only with sine wave oscillator...). My problem was and still is the inability to use the output of these oscillators to mix them back to their inputs (some kind of feedback, which is the problem according to Bitwig Support). This would be necessary if one wants to make a similar mix matrix like FM4 comes with. Missing this matrix the whole concept of inter-modulation is nearly useless.
