Latency and MIDI clock sync questions from a potential new user

[jbone1313]

Hi all,

I am interested in Bitwig. I would be grateful if someone could provide answers to the below questions. I have done a good bit of searching and demoing, but I still do not have clear answers.

1. When slaving a device to Bitwig via MIDI clock, is the MIDI clock delay compensated? The reason I ask is that in Ableton, the MIDI clock is NOT delay compensated. For example, say you slave a MPC to Ableton and you adjust the MIDI clock sync delay so that everything is in time. Then, say you add a bunch of high latency plugins to your project. Your slaved MPC will now be off. This is clearly demonstrated in the video linked below starting around 7:50.
2. In Bitwig, how can I determine how much latency a particular device is introducing to the project? In Ableton, you simply mouse over the device and the latency is shown at the bottom.
3. When slaving Bitwig to my Octatrack, and recording the Octatrack's metronome, the Octatrack's metronome is recorded early. I have to add a delay of about 60 milliseconds to the Bitwig settings to get it lined up. That seems pretty wrong. Am I doing something wrong?
4. When slaving Bitwig to a hardware sequencer, does the clock sync delay setting impact the project's latency?
5. If anyone is syncing hardware to Bitwig and vice versa and has any tips, I would appreciate it.

Many thanks!

https://youtu.be/2seraaKagYk?t=7m50s

[jbone1313]

Through my testing yesterday, the answers to 1 and 2 are:

1. Yes;
2. Look in mixer view.

[Tearing Riots]

3. If it lines up don't worry about it. Or try a different interface
4. No, audio buffer has nothing to do with this
5. Bitwig as a master, all monitoring done through bitwig works excellent

[jbone1313]

Thanks for the reply. It's insane that Ableton does not have this working right, as I pointed out in the OP.

Agree that Bitwig as master is the way to go.

Kudos to Bitwig.

[ste0]

I tried to slave Bitwig from Octatrack recently, and had to manually set -80msec in the sync settings. However after a little while it's completely out of sync, had to manually set it again, maybe to -50msec or similar. Why is this, is there any solution or workaround to this?

[jbone1313]

Yeah - with Bitwig as slave, I also had to set about -60ms. I quickly gave up on that. I think Bitwig as slave needs some more work.

But, Bitwig as master works perfectly.

[ste0]

Is the slave issue with Bitwig, or can it be sound card setting (have Focusrite 6i6)?
That's really too bad. I was planning to use it live as Slave. Do I have to buy Ableton to be able to use live, or does all program have issues as midi Slave?

[jbone1313]

I doubt it is your sound card. I have the issue as well with a RME, and I've been syncing gear for years, so I know I'm doing with all that.

Live is worse than Bitwig with syncing. Actually, Bitwig is the best DAW I have used for syncing.

Using Live a slave causes Live to have issues accepting MIDI input from keyboards, etc. It's a ridiculous bug that has been there for years.

Studio One does not do slaving at all.

For now, your best bet is to just make Bitwig the master.

[iLLusionistX]

After reading this thread, I thought I should ask this question.

I'm currently have a MPC X and I'm using it as the midi beat clock master with Bitwig as the slave.

I notice that when I hit play that the bpm jumps back and forth between 170 and 169.9 bpms constantly. Now at the time I was just running it, I didn't have anything loaded more or least just testing to make sure everything was hooked up.

Still wanted to know if this is s typical experience or if better sync can be achieved? Be aware ... I'm using the X in standalone mode with a MIO midi to USB cable. Controller mode would ideal, but the MPC software can be unresponsive and crashes randomly which is laughable considering my PC specs.

Anyway, is this beat sync performance normal?

[jbone1313]

Sounds completely normal to me - like every machine I have ever synced to a computer does that.

[iLLusionistX]

Sounds completely normal to me - like every machine I have ever synced to a computer does that.

Thanks Jbone. That helps me worry less!

[jbone1313]

To elaborate:

If there is a USB connection involved, then it is probably due to jitter. If not, then it could be due to the slave device's logic for updating its tempo value.

In both cases, I do not worry about it.

There are many debates on the internet about how much of a problem jitter is. And, some DAWs and machines handle it better or worse.

For me personally, Ableton and Bitwig's jitter is very low, and it does not bother me at all, and I am picky about these things. I think Ableton has some information in its manual discussing jitter.

I personally would not worry about it.

If you start monitoring synced hardware through a DAW, it can get a little trickier, but it is doable. And, the problems introduced by that are not jitter related; they are latency related.

[iLLusionistX]

To elaborate:

If there is a USB connection involved, then it is probably due to jitter. If not, then it could be due to the slave device's logic for updating its tempo value.

In both cases, I do not worry about it.

There are many debates on the internet about how much of a problem jitter is. And, some DAWs and machines handle it better or worse.

For me personally, Ableton and Bitwig's jitter is very low, and it does not bother me at all, and I am picky about these things. I think Ableton has some information in its manual discussing jitter.

I personally would not worry about it.

If you start monitoring synced hardware through a DAW, it can get a little trickier, but it is doable. And, the problems introduced by that are not jitter related; they are latency related.

The back and forth reminds me a lot of how my digital vinyl kept in time with traktor. I could beat match it perfectly and still there's that slight drift back and forth...granted the technics I had were 2nd hand and probably 20 years old, still I never felt that constant back and forth was even noticeably. So I imagine that what is happening now will generate the same almost perfect result.
I really appreciate the info JBones, thanks again!