Cake and eat it kinda stuff but I want updates and new features.
Waveform 10 - What and when to expect...
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 189 posts since 27 Mar, 2014 from Brisbane, Australia
It sounds as if it's plugins that cause the most grief. I live entirely in the multi-sampler and occasionally use the Renoise Redux as my sole VST and don't experience any real instability. Preview rendering can be a bit dodgy though.
Cake and eat it kinda stuff but I want updates and new features.
Cake and eat it kinda stuff but I want updates and new features.
Making Bitpop music....
Tracktion Waveform 11 under Ubuntu 20.04.
ROC CUbe Ryzen 3400G - 32GB RAM, 2xSSD, Integrated Radeon RC Vega 11 GPU
Yamaha USB Mixing Station, Mackie Reference Monitors & Axiom A.I.R 32 controller.
Tracktion Waveform 11 under Ubuntu 20.04.
ROC CUbe Ryzen 3400G - 32GB RAM, 2xSSD, Integrated Radeon RC Vega 11 GPU
Yamaha USB Mixing Station, Mackie Reference Monitors & Axiom A.I.R 32 controller.
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- KVRAF
- 4461 posts since 27 Jul, 2004
You are right...gavindi wrote: ↑Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:27 am It sounds as if it's plugins that cause the most grief. I live entirely in the multi-sampler and occasionally use the Renoise Redux as my sole VST and don't experience any real instability. Preview rendering can be a bit dodgy though.
Cake and eat it kinda stuff but I want updates and new features.
Stability issues I always had with VST´s not Waveform´s core features.
What you are mention are VSTi´s... instruments...
What do you use for EQ, Reverb, Delay, dynamics, creative FX etc... these (3rd party) plugins causing the most trouble for me... completely random, nothing recreatable... there is just one moment in time and Waveform crashes to the desktop without any warning at all...
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 189 posts since 27 Mar, 2014 from Brisbane, Australia
That explains why I'm not feeling the pain. Yeah, I meant VSTi's and as for effects (VST's), the only ones I use are the Tracktion Essentials.You are right...
Stability issues I always had with VST´s not Waveform´s core features.
What you are mention are VSTi´s... instruments...
What do you use for EQ, Reverb, Delay, dynamics, creative FX etc... these (3rd party) plugins causing the most trouble for me... completely random, nothing recreatable... there is just one moment in time and Waveform crashes to the desktop without any warning at all...
Renoise has this great feature where it will render samples from VSTi's along the scale and I use that feature to create multi-samples in Tracktion. Even that's a rare case for me though.
And yup, all done under Linux including artwork, video production, etc....
Last edited by gavindi on Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Making Bitpop music....
Tracktion Waveform 11 under Ubuntu 20.04.
ROC CUbe Ryzen 3400G - 32GB RAM, 2xSSD, Integrated Radeon RC Vega 11 GPU
Yamaha USB Mixing Station, Mackie Reference Monitors & Axiom A.I.R 32 controller.
Tracktion Waveform 11 under Ubuntu 20.04.
ROC CUbe Ryzen 3400G - 32GB RAM, 2xSSD, Integrated Radeon RC Vega 11 GPU
Yamaha USB Mixing Station, Mackie Reference Monitors & Axiom A.I.R 32 controller.
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- KVRian
- 537 posts since 23 Jan, 2008 from Hamburg, Germany
For me it is actually the other way around. External plugins (u-he, redux etc) currently run fine and the main app seems to work fine as well. But the Essential Collection, Collective and Biotek are sometimes buggy as hell here where the amount of crashes and bugs vary like an S&H LFO over the releases. Eg some of the effects of the current Essential Collection have zero height GUI windows in Waveform 9 and they crash when used with Renoise, Bitwig or REAPER*.
Not all of the products behave weird all the time but which ones do varies from release to release. At some point the Essentials worked fine but Collective was crashing and forgetting notes. Mixing and matching different build versions and releases even made it worse.
For me this looks like someone is constantly tinkering with the symptoms instead of fixing the actual cause of the problem.
It's hard to be creative when I know that my tool may crash at any time or when it is uncertain that I will be able to open my project again in a month or two.
*That's on a Linux certified Dell notebook with stock Ubuntu 18.4.
Not all of the products behave weird all the time but which ones do varies from release to release. At some point the Essentials worked fine but Collective was crashing and forgetting notes. Mixing and matching different build versions and releases even made it worse.
For me this looks like someone is constantly tinkering with the symptoms instead of fixing the actual cause of the problem.
It's hard to be creative when I know that my tool may crash at any time or when it is uncertain that I will be able to open my project again in a month or two.
*That's on a Linux certified Dell notebook with stock Ubuntu 18.4.
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spoontechnique spoontechnique https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=418750
- KVRist
- 427 posts since 7 May, 2018
Unexpected crashes turn the fun of making music into stress. I have my autosave set to 1 minute due to some issues I had earlier. So I definitely agree that it's a priority.
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- KVRian
- 724 posts since 25 Jul, 2010 from Northern Ireland
I tend to manually save every time i make any change, so basically my hands hover over ctrl-s constantly, it has become habit now when using Waveform. My main culprits are also Collective and the essentials collection for random crashes. I have Waveform set to 'send crashes' within the app, so hopefully the Devs are seeing this with some debug info to help them get to the bottom of the problem. I also always get these plugins opening up with no size gui, which I believe was fixed in a prior version, but something has obviously caused a regression there.
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- KVRian
- 1371 posts since 11 Nov, 2013
i think too waveform itself crash not so often. most problem i see is use collective. if use collective instrument as midi preview instrumtent(by use of the track menu), collective crash when change sound. but not always, only sooner or later.
wy waveform do not save a additional song file when the crash happen ?. and then after a new start can choose "load song that is save from crash handler". and if this song work ok, no data is lost.if not then the auto save file can load. but i guess in 99.99999% of case the data in file is not trash
wy waveform do not save a additional song file when the crash happen ?. and then after a new start can choose "load song that is save from crash handler". and if this song work ok, no data is lost.if not then the auto save file can load. but i guess in 99.99999% of case the data in file is not trash
win 10 64 22H2 intel i5 8600K (6*3.6 GHZ) 32 GB Ram
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- KVRAF
- 1777 posts since 30 Dec, 2012
Hi everyone, thanks for starting this thread, however, it's quickly derailed in to a stability torrent so I'll try to clear up some of the confusion and explain what we're doing about certain aspects.
• Firstly people having issues with Collective ("crashing and missing notes")
Are you sure you're using the latest version? v1.2.1
We did spend a long time looking in to what was causing common crashes and missing notes and to the best of our knowledge this has been fixed in v1.2.1. If you're still seeing this however, please let us know with a crash log and info about what you were doing with it at the time. Collective is a huge beast so whilst we do automated testing, there's a chance you've stumbled across a configuration that hasn't been explored by us.
• 0px plugin windows
Can I clarify that this is only happening on Linux?
We are aware of this problem but it's in the JUCE plugin window hosting code so isn't something we can directly fix.
I did spend a long time looking in to this but seems to be a problem with the IPC method X11 has which interferes with the way some plugins report their window sizes.
I will have another look at this at some point but in my experience, closing the window and reopening it fixes the size issue so it's not a complete show stopper, hence why it hasn't made it to the top of the priority list just yet.
• 3rd party plugins crashing
This is a problem that will rage until the end of time. I don't have a magical fix for this but we are working on ways to improve compatibility with plugins and especially diagnose and report these problems.
We've created an open source plugin validation tool called pluginval which should help our CI, QA, beta testers and users quickly test plugin compatibility, diagnose where incompatibilities lie and generally improve the speed at which we can report and fix issues.
I've not posted about that here yet as it's still in the early stages however I will be giving a talk about it at the Audio Developer Conference next month so will report more afterwards.
• Improving auto-save and crash recovery
We've heard you that this is an issue so we've done a lot of under-the-hood changes in W10 to improve how autosave and crash recovery works. In W10, all changes will be automatically saved, without the need for a timeout setting. This means that if the app (or a plugin) does crash, you should get back all your work, exactly where you left off.
In addition to this, we've improved the crash recovery so the app will automatically relaunch and reopen your sessions very quickly (depending on the contents of the Edits) so the irritation should be minimised.
Hopefully this should clear things up a bit and ease concerns a little.
Thanks for listening!
• Firstly people having issues with Collective ("crashing and missing notes")
Are you sure you're using the latest version? v1.2.1
We did spend a long time looking in to what was causing common crashes and missing notes and to the best of our knowledge this has been fixed in v1.2.1. If you're still seeing this however, please let us know with a crash log and info about what you were doing with it at the time. Collective is a huge beast so whilst we do automated testing, there's a chance you've stumbled across a configuration that hasn't been explored by us.
• 0px plugin windows
Can I clarify that this is only happening on Linux?
We are aware of this problem but it's in the JUCE plugin window hosting code so isn't something we can directly fix.
I did spend a long time looking in to this but seems to be a problem with the IPC method X11 has which interferes with the way some plugins report their window sizes.
I will have another look at this at some point but in my experience, closing the window and reopening it fixes the size issue so it's not a complete show stopper, hence why it hasn't made it to the top of the priority list just yet.
• 3rd party plugins crashing
This is a problem that will rage until the end of time. I don't have a magical fix for this but we are working on ways to improve compatibility with plugins and especially diagnose and report these problems.
We've created an open source plugin validation tool called pluginval which should help our CI, QA, beta testers and users quickly test plugin compatibility, diagnose where incompatibilities lie and generally improve the speed at which we can report and fix issues.
I've not posted about that here yet as it's still in the early stages however I will be giving a talk about it at the Audio Developer Conference next month so will report more afterwards.
• Improving auto-save and crash recovery
We've heard you that this is an issue so we've done a lot of under-the-hood changes in W10 to improve how autosave and crash recovery works. In W10, all changes will be automatically saved, without the need for a timeout setting. This means that if the app (or a plugin) does crash, you should get back all your work, exactly where you left off.
In addition to this, we've improved the crash recovery so the app will automatically relaunch and reopen your sessions very quickly (depending on the contents of the Edits) so the irritation should be minimised.
Hopefully this should clear things up a bit and ease concerns a little.
Thanks for listening!
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- KVRist
- 319 posts since 9 Sep, 2017
Thx so much Dave, this sounds great!
In case your new autosave system works a bit similar to a dataserver log file (that rolls back to any requested point in time, that is not before the last consolidation/backup), it might yield great help additionally for debugging.
pluginval sounds powerful.
-remark-
The submix vs folder track issue sounds difficult. I would strictly organize it by the paradigm of a track destination (buss track) common to all tracks in the respective folder. So it just collapses any track that outputs into a particular buss track, into the track folder that the bus track automatically should represent. This may or optionally may not reorder the component tracks geometrically in the GUI.
You might add a command to the "it's a bus track" property, that says "hide all my component tracks".
I'm considering it might not want to be something "extra", but the features of a submix, a folder, and a bus track could have been identical from the beginning.
But furthermore, all this should be fully recursive, like the bus tracks have had the ability to become nested since ever and by design as well.
Freezing should be possible at any point and at multiple points in this tree.
Multitrack racks and effect sends make it a net graph, but this difficulty also can only become easier with a more symmetric and fractal submix logic.
In case your new autosave system works a bit similar to a dataserver log file (that rolls back to any requested point in time, that is not before the last consolidation/backup), it might yield great help additionally for debugging.
pluginval sounds powerful.
-remark-
The submix vs folder track issue sounds difficult. I would strictly organize it by the paradigm of a track destination (buss track) common to all tracks in the respective folder. So it just collapses any track that outputs into a particular buss track, into the track folder that the bus track automatically should represent. This may or optionally may not reorder the component tracks geometrically in the GUI.
You might add a command to the "it's a bus track" property, that says "hide all my component tracks".
I'm considering it might not want to be something "extra", but the features of a submix, a folder, and a bus track could have been identical from the beginning.
But furthermore, all this should be fully recursive, like the bus tracks have had the ability to become nested since ever and by design as well.
Freezing should be possible at any point and at multiple points in this tree.
Multitrack racks and effect sends make it a net graph, but this difficulty also can only become easier with a more symmetric and fractal submix logic.
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- KVRist
- 291 posts since 17 Sep, 2004 from Good Old Germany
+1Benutzername wrote: ↑Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:29 pm +1
Please work on stability, platform compatability, stability, crash resistance, stability, memory usage and stability before doing anything else.
I've tried Waveform many times over the years and I even bought several versions because I really like the concept. But I never build confidence with it because of stability issues and severe bugs. Every new version fixes a lot of things but breaks many other things. Be it the silence bug of Collective, crashes at startup, huge cpu usage out of nowhere and currently unusable plug in windows with 50x0 pixels client size from the Essentials Collection (external plug-ins currently work much better).
So please go through your code and make everything more bug and crash resistant. Add unit tests against regressions, rewrite ancient spaghetti code to modern standards, use safe pointers, array classes and so on. Do whatever is needed.
The best new effect or synth is worth nothing if the host window has a height of 0 pixels and is not resizeable or when the plug in only produces silence after ten seconds.
Hope the best for V10
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- KVRist
- 37 posts since 3 Sep, 2016
I dunno.. I'd love to see things fixed I reported under W8 that were not fixed in W9... Maybe they can be fixed for W10? That would be nice, but at this point, what would I be paying for with W10 when I did not get what I paid for with W8 or W9...
If the trial version shows bugs fixed, I'll consider, otherwise no more of my money will be spent on Tracktion upgrades.
If the trial version shows bugs fixed, I'll consider, otherwise no more of my money will be spent on Tracktion upgrades.
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- KVRian
- 593 posts since 22 Oct, 2006
The ability to run Steven Slate Trigger 2 !!! Yes I know, Im a broken record. But every other DAW has ZERO issues with Trigger 2. Yes I have been explained why it wont work in Waveform by Tracktion developers. But hopefully 10 will see Slate and Tracktion devs fix it
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- KVRAF
- 1777 posts since 30 Dec, 2012
Trigger 2 isn't a bug on our side, we just "expose" it. Other DAWs will also expose it in the right circumstances...
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- KVRAF
- 35277 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
Plugin sandboxing as in Reaper or Bitwig. At most it means the plugin crashes but it doesn't bring down the host. Make it optional on a per plugin basis so people can quarantine any less stable plugins without overheads on the rest.
