KVR Audio

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:42 am

TBH, i'm a bit surprised how many sales thread there are where people are selling software which is not supposed to be resold (Image-Line, Propellerhead accounts with rack extensions). Is that part of the forum modded at all? I mean, if we can give a crap on the companies EULA's, we might as well discuss warez here as well, couldn't we?

Scotty · Post by **Scotty** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:54 pm

I'll abide by whatever rules are put in place in the marketplace. However, the non transferability of Rack Extensions is a low water mark in the industry. As far as Eula's go, that aspect of their end user agreement deserves the criticism it receives even if its ridiculous terms are honored within the marketplace.

chk071 wrote:TBH, i'm a bit surprised how many sales thread there are where people are selling software which is not supposed to be resold (Image-Line, Propellerhead accounts with rack extensions). Is that part of the forum modded at all? I mean, if we can give a crap on the companies EULA's, we might as well discuss warez here as well, couldn't we?

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:01 pm

Scotty wrote:I'll abide by whatever rules are put in place in the marketplace.

Well, that should be eaxactly the attitude. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be, when people don't respect the companies' EULA's. TBH, i don't get it. I spot stuff like that every couple of days, and the sales threads are up for months.

Sell & Buy forum rules wrote:You may not sell/trade anything that you are not legally entitled to, whether due to license restrictions, not owning the original in the case of software (cracks, warez, etc.), or any other bizarre reason that would make it illegal to sell the item.

If selling software you must obtain permission to transfer the license from the developer before advertising it for sale, failure to do so will almost definitely be in breach of the license agreement. Sample CDs and sample based instruments have notoriously restrictive license agreements so check before you try to sell.

NOTE: You may not agree with the license agreement, and you may plead that it is illegal/immoral/invalid in your country, but that's not for us to decide, if a license agreement states that you can't resell/transfer it then you can't sell it here.

fluffy_little_something · Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:07 pm

There is so much going on in the market place forum, it must be hard for mods to keep track...

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:09 pm

Maybe. I'm not even on there much, i only see the respective entries in the latest post section. And i spot such a sale once a week or so, with the threads being months old, often.

I think this forum has too few mods in general, though.

fluffy_little_something · Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:13 pm

You seem to live on KVR, anyway, why don't you offer to help moderate the Sell & Buy forum, being an orderly, law-abiding German and all?

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:17 pm

I would be the worst mod of all times.

The mods here are actually great (thus a bit too forgiving, but, that's just my opinion), it's just too few of them.

dangayle · Post by **dangayle** » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:39 am

I don't see why everyone has to run around being the forum police, tbh. EULA violations are not at all the same as breaking the law. Doesn't mean it is right, but I also believe it is none of my business.

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:50 am

You expect mods to know all license agreements by heart??

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:59 pm

dangayle wrote:I don't see why everyone has to run around being the forum police, tbh. EULA violations are not at all the same as breaking the law. Doesn't mean it is right, but I also believe it is none of my business.

I didn't do that though, did i? Just asking for more modding. Because, frankly, it can't be in the interest of a site largely living by companies advertising, that there's people not minding the company EULA's they accepted to when they bought the plugins in the first place. It surely isn't in my interest either.

BertKoor wrote:You expect mods to know all license agreements by heart??

Actually, there's even a thread on the topic of company's resale policies. viewtopic.php?f=43&t=354654 And, yes, i'd expect mods to know at least what the bigger company's policies are. As a regular reader here, even i know most of them.

Tj Shredder · Post by **Tj Shredder** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:49 am

Some EULAs are against local laws. In Germany you are allowed to resell any software by law. Of course many companies make it hard via their copy protection scheme, which you are not allowed to circumvent...
It is more important to have a sticky to make market place participants aware of the subject. They should read the EULA and decide in respect of their legislation...

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:05 am

There is already a sticky in the forum that deals with this.

Important note regarding sales in the EU

According to a 2012 judgement by the Court of Justice of the European Union: "An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his 'used' licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet".

An official press release / summary is available here (PDF)

This states "even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy."

We are not in the legal profession here at KVR, but with this information you can decide what to do.

If you wish to sell something that was considered unsellable before this judgement and the "author of software" hasn't (yet?) changed their policy, we ask that you make it clear in your sale post that there is the potential that the sale / transfer process may not go smoothly (and make it clear why).

In any event, we are in no position to arbitrate between the seller, the "author of software" and / or the buyer.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:48 am

TBH, i think that's quite a joke. What about NFR plugins, which have been resold one time? Of course, we are also supposed to resell them as many times as we want, so, should we force the developers now to allow further reselling? Really, i think it's time to feel less entitleld as a consumer. And think. The further we stretch our "rights", the more we will force developers into making their plugins even more expensive.

sjm · Post by **sjm** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:33 pm

If you really want to reopen this can of worms, why? Can't you just read the old threads that have hashed this to death and pointed out that you can't circumvent laws through contracts. You only need one extreme case to invalidate the argument that an EULA has precendence over laws. If the EULA were to contain a clause that makes murder legal, would that really fly in court?

Unless you think that the answer to that question should be "yes", the rest of this thread is moot and is probably best locked.

You personally do not get to be the arbiter of what is legal however much you may wish it to be so. That is what legislation is for.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:48 pm

So you want to argue that every single one of the EULA's of developers is illegit and should be changed? Don't even have to look tho the developers whose plugins go NFR atfer one resale. What about u-he, for example? They charge 15 € if you want to sell their license before you owned it 9 months. Should i sue them now?

Why not act responsible as a customer, and try not to buy plugins or software you are likely to sell after a short period of time?

KVR Audio

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