general Music Cafe discussion thread

[donkey tugger]

I for one welcome our new music fascist overlords.

Isn't it sort of a fascist attitude itself to permanently correct people when they do or say something wrong (at least in your eyes)?

Just casting my mind back in the mists of time when I studied politics and history at Leeds University, I seem to recall that the fascist lads were usually more into twatting and killing people rather than arguing the toss. Not keen on the old back and forth of debate Adolf and Benito.

Of course it was a long time ago, and to be fair, I spent a lot of the time in the stewdent union bar, so I could be wrong.

[chk071]

I for one welcome our new music fascist overlords.

Are you talking about Silke F?

Why, did SilkeF also post a ludicrously restrictive set of rules to make people follow when posting music in the Cafe?

No, but spamming a site with your self important trash can also be seen as a form of terror.

Besides, rules are there to get along with each other. Not "teh fascism". Even better than rules is making sure people follow them.

But, why are we even discussing this? Why does a troll need to be defended?

[wagtunes]

I wasn't going to respond but since my name was dragged into this by our resident lawmaker, I feel like I'm obligated to.

I've got quite a bit to say. Feel free to ignore it.

First off, I just listened to Silke's latest post and really liked it. In fact, I'd say it's my favorite of all the things she's posted, for whatever that's worth.

Secondly, I've read the list of "rules" according to Frantz.

Let me start off by saying that, for the most part, I've lost interest in the rest of the forum. Music Cafe is my new home. Ultimately, it's always been about the music for me. It's been that way for over 40 years of my life.

The proposal is one new track per week to a new thread or to an existing thread like my compilation thread.

I currently comment on anywhere from 3 to 5 threads a day now. Sometimes more. I am, and will be, one of the biggest contributors to this sub forum. In fact, in some threads I have been the only one to post comments to that person's music. If I were only allowed to post one new song per week, I'd say "the hell with this" and my contributions to this sub forum would be gone. And it would be that way for a lot of people. You might as well just shut this place down.

Gearslutz Songwriting is already a ghost town. You're lucky if you get 2 new threads per day. Here, you're lucky to get 5, not counting Silke.

Want to kill this place? Make a ton of rules. My lousy one thread on page 1 isn't hurting anybody. Hardly anyone comes to it anyway for several reasons. One, I'm one of the least liked people here. Two, people hate Vocaloid. And three, nobody wants to wade through pages and pages just to find my music. So in truth, I'm really just wasting my time. But I'm fine with that. I want to actually contribute to this sub forum. People here want their music heard. I want to at least be a part of letting them know that it is being heard. That is my agenda. That is my only agenda. You can believe it, not believe it, don't really care at this point. The fighting and arguing and nastiness that goes on around here has finally gotten me to the point where I just don't care anymore. I like listening to music. So that's why I'm here.

My song per day isn't going to turn KVR Music Cafe into The Death Star

Frantz, you need to get a life.

[whyterabbyt]

My suggestion: Mods lock any Silke-F-thread as soon as it appears.

Because s/he is not answering anyway, it doesn't matter if one is able to reply or not.

And would you extend that to all posters who dont follow up in their own threads?

Or just the ones Frantz points a finger at?

[jancivil]

I for one welcome our new music fascist overlords.

Isn't it sort of a fascist attitude itself to permanently correct people when they do or say something wrong (at least in your eyes)?

Just casting my mind back in the mists of time when I studied politics and history at Leeds University, I seem to recall that the fascist lads were usually more into [...] killing people rather than arguing the toss.

They can multitask. They require pooting forth the narrative/the argument.

I'm not a fan of tossing "fascist" into it, since we have literal fascism working in the US at least, UK not terrifically different. The word has a known meaning (which I won't lecture on as it is going to arouse a moderator in all probability).

I disagree with any of that becoming rules but I'm not worried, it isn't going to happen.

[elassi]

My suggestion: Mods lock any Silke-F-thread as soon as it appears.

Because s/he is not answering anyway, it doesn't matter if one is able to reply or not.

And would you extend that to all posters who dont follow up in their own threads?

Or just the ones Frantz points a finger at?

One can't deny that "Silke" is a special case. How to 'tackle' it is another question.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

5. You cannot repost an old song in a new thread. Just bump the original thread. An exception can be made if the prior thread is very old and has a lot of irrelevant information.

5. Huh?

You would be surprised but this happens from time to time. Sometimes I am listening to a "new" song which sounds very familiar. Then I look at the poster's history and it turns out they submitted the same track last month, ignored all feedback, and reposted it in a new thread.

Another recent example was a guy posted a track and got positive feedback on it. Then after it fell off the front page of the Cafe, he reposted the same track as a new "What genre is this?" thread.

Ok, I understand now.

It's interesting, because I wasn't really viewing this from the point of people using this place to drive traffic to external sites, and hence why they would even need a separate post to get more exposure for the same track.

It's pretty amusing, as when this place has been surveyed for user age range, it always seems like this is a place (country) for old men. If that is true, then the thought of the next fresh edm-whippersnapper trying to rig the system to pry us away from our bickering to listen to their latest Beatport submission, is about all the amusement I can take for this afternoon

[jancivil]

Who gets to decide what 'adds nothing new' is? It's interpretive. I can bump something and pretend there's something new, and people might be rather clever about it, and again that's up for someone in charge (Hink? DH? Ben? Who's the nominee?) to sort out.

Of course, things are open to interpretation and guidelines are suggestions not iron clad rules. When it becomes obvious too many guidelines are being violated, you can report someone to a moderator. If the moderator has clear guidelines, then they can take action. As it stands now, the moderator looks at the situation, says there are no clear guidelines against what Silke did, and ultimately does nothing.

I entirely agree with this. There was one moderator aroused by your report and that's where we are now.
It looked like you were suggesting actual rules, guidelines is something else. Add to the sticky 'Music Cafe Guidelines'.

Regarding the point about self-bumping. Often it's very obvious there is nothing new and the only addition to the thread is one post containing the word, "bump." If you really want to lock this issue down, in another forum I participate in, posts lock after several minutes and cannot be edited so it is very clear what is new and what is not.

I actually did that one two days ago. I wouldn't want to lock that down, a lot of other people whose music we should hear, over some of the other music IMO, have done. If that was how this forum works, I'm totally gone. You're 'just saying', I don't think you're actually suggesting that one, but I'm just saying.

[chk071]

I'll be honest with y'all. Silke F can kiss my white German ass.

[jancivil]

5. You cannot repost an old song in a new thread. Just bump the original thread. An exception can be made if the prior thread is very old and has a lot of irrelevant information.

5. Huh?

You would be surprised but this happens from time to time. Sometimes I am listening to a "new" song which sounds very familiar. Then I look at the poster's history and it turns out they submitted the same track last month, ignored all feedback, and reposted it in a new thread.

Another recent example was a guy posted a track and got positive feedback on it. Then after it fell off the front page of the Cafe, he reposted the same track as a new "What genre is this?" thread.

Ok, I understand now.

I remember that one, actually. Pretty obtuse behavior. Might be good for 'Guidelines' but I had trouble getting it as well.

[whyterabbyt]

]But, why are we even discussing this? Why does a troll need to be defended?

Much as Frantz's 'big list of ways to prevent people from posting in the Music cafe ever again' is posited as something that should be applicable to everyone, its entirely a post-hoc outcome of his specific targetting of Silke F, because getting at her is his endgame.

Moving the goalposts of KVR's rules everyone every time one single individual decides to target another is one hell of a slippery slope, and whilst you might be happy bending over for that sort of thing, Im not.

Whatever your opinion of Silke F's work, or their motivations, or endgame is, the precedent that sets is far worse than one driveby post in the Music Cafe every two or three days.

'Silke F' doesnt 'need to be defended'. 'Everyone' does, ie the general Music Cafe audience. You know, given that this is a general Music Cafe discussion, or were you kneejerking off too much to follow what that implied?

[Frantz]

I wouldn't want to lock that down, a lot of other people whose music we should hear, over some of the other music IMO, have done. If that was how this forum works, I'm totally gone. You're 'just saying', I don't think you're actually suggesting that one, but I'm just saying.

Yes, I like being able to update the first post in a thread so everyone can quickly get the latest information in one place. I was only saying that making posts read-only after a few minutes is hypothetically possible.

[whyterabbyt]

One can't deny that "Silke" is a special case.

Not special enough to warrant the underwriting of Frantz's personal crusade by changing the entire foundation of KVR's Music Cafe.

How to 'tackle' it is another question.

I rather think we should instead tackle Frantz's targetting of one single individual merely because they post some music too frequently to suit him.
That's a far worse behaviour than posting a track every two or three days and not having the etiquette to comment on feedback.

[sjm]

A general purpose thread for discussion on posting in the Music Cafe.

Is it appropriate:
* to start lots of new threads per day and ignore other users?

At the very least, it is inconsiderate. I'd say if you have an EP's worth or album's worth of stuff to show, make a playlist and present it as such.

I wouldn't make a strict rule about this, the rule should be "respect others and show consideration". An arbitrary rule like one new post every 5 days is silly. Why not 4 days? Why not once a week? What about bumping? It's all far too arbitrary and unnecessarily complicated. Legislating for the few people that can't understand the "do unto others" rule is pointless.

* to use the Music Cafe as a sketch pad?

Do you mean to bounce around ideas and get feedback on a WIP? Hell yeah, isn't that the ultimate purpose, to get feedback and discuss what we're up to? If that's not what you meant, maybe you can clarify.

It would be nice if there was an indication in the thread title of what to expect. "Some quick doodles" and "My Epic 4 hour quadruple album" gives us a heads up what to expect.

* for users to complain about other users spamming the Cafe?

Depends if I can complain about people complaining about spamming the cafe or not. If I can't, I'd definitely complain about that.

[jancivil]

First off, I just listened to Silke's latest post and really liked it. In fact, I'd say it's my favorite of all the things she's posted, for whatever that's worth.

Not much, no offense, but that's not the topic. We're here because of "Silke F" and the obtuse lack of consideration or engagement. Should there be guidelines, probably. If not, well I don't rely on this place to listen to music. Elbo mentioned teh EDM kiddies (which does nicely foreshadow the Silke brouhaha) and that kind of thing itself is overwhelming at times; so me commenting on much, I won't comment on what I don't like. You do not want that! I can go to Youtube which is where I look to listen. The only skin off my ass personally was I wanted Nuages 3 heard and if you're like me you may not even bother with page 2, even.