kevvvvv's reply to recent forum mess

[kevvvvv]

BONES

You regret, that's it? You don't feel that you overstepped the mark by deleting threads completely? Of course, its impossible to know whether or not you may have been justified because I never got to read any of the replies to my own thread and hadn't read anything at all on any of the others. But from what I've read since, there didn't seem to be anything happening that doesn't happen on dozens of threads every week that go completely unmoderated. So I'm left to decide whether I trust your judgement over that of several other members. Its a difficult position you've put yourself in. I can see nop justifiable reason to delete an entire thread if there was even one valid post, and my initial post was certainly valid and only peripherally about Nexus anyway.

BONES ... two things I'd like to say here:

1 - Do you remember when you first joined KVR. I do. I remember it clearly.


You arrived on the scene as "an angry young man" and within a very short time, there was a whole thread (and more) appearing dedicated to "Ban BONES".

In fact it was a witch hunt - against you.

And in fact, it was me that stepped in and averted this witch hunt. I stuck up for you, and helped turned the tide at a key juncture.

Why did I do this?

Because, as I say I loathe witch hunts.

But also because behind all the spleen you put in your arguments, I saw an intelligent guy who was actually saying something smart.

Not a nit-picking rabble rouser, but smart.

And I liked you for it.

2 - Now it's my turn, BONES. Some people think I've been unjust. Okay. That's done now.

Your thread walked right into the line of fire when there was quite a big issue raging.

Is "collateral damage" what I'm trying to say?

Probably.

It was an ugly situation, and you stepped right into it.

I personally have no quarrel with you. Quite the opposite. I enjoy your threads. And I understand what you're saying today.

If you can accept this explanation I'd be grateful.

kev

[1-2-Many]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that Chase could intimidate you BONES - I'm just concerned that sort of behavior cows other members from speaking their minds.

I also agree with where you're going on all this, but have resolved to personally say no more on the subject.

[Hewitt Huntwork]

Kevvvvv, I appreciate your comments, but I think you've done damage here and you don't seem to fully understand what some of us think you have done. I think if you love KVR so much you should own up to the way in which you've compromised it. If you thought BONES was on a witch hunt, and you can't tolerate that, you shouldn't be a mod.

You should have defended REFX the way you say you defended BONES in the old days, rather than the way you did defend them, by censoring BONES (and others).

[Kriminal]

I've never made a public statement like this before, so here goes:

I'm sorry about all the mess as I have a lot of love for KVR and hate to see it dragged down for any reason.

KVR has been a great thing over the years, and has been at the leading-edge of music because us, the members, have wanted it so, and made it so.

We've all got reason to be proud of what we've helped to build.

As for me?

I'm not just a Mod. I'm a member too, probably longest-serving active member here.

It's obvious I love the place as much as anyone.

As such, I've got a strong distaste for witch hunts. Loathe them.

To see an incensed pack descend on one or two individuals is human behaviour at its worst.

The witch hunt that started everything off was a lengthy thread condemning Nexus and - here's the rub - no one had actually played it.

Anyway, I'm not here to discuss this now. Just to simply say what I saw through my eyes.

If you see my name around KVR, please remember:

> I genuinely love this place

> I genuinely regret all the recent trouble

> I genuinely loathe witch hunts

kev

just admit that youre a C*NT kevvvv

only joking mate, i have no idea what all this handbags is about


proper krimbo!

[Cryogenic]

Damage?
This place just got better, after the mod's took a stand.

[kevvvvv]

HewittH

If you thought BONES was on a witch hunt, and you can't tolerate that, you shouldn't be a mod.

I didn't say that. Pls get your facts straight.

HewittH

I think if you love KVR so much you should own up to the way in which you've compromised it.

Pls read my statement at the beginning of this thread.

[Majken]

Here's a word of advice to the mods, and no I'm not talking about kevvvvv but rather all the mods including Ben. Don't ever, ever, ever delete threads unless they're actually spam from ad-bots or what-not.

Deleting a thread because of a heated argument is kind of like burning evidence in a lawsuit. If no one is able to look at the evidence it's impossible to make your mind up on who's wrong and who's right. The result will be a bunch of people that are going to assume they're being censored.

Just lock the threads and edit any posts that break forum rules. But edit them with a text clearly saying "Deleted by forum mod" or something similar. If good threads goes off topic and ends up in flame wars, split them and move the bad part to an off topic forum. Leave a link and warn users that going off topic again will result in locked threads.

If threads aren't deleted it's easier to know what's ok and what isn't. It's also easier to spot users constantly breaking the rules. Other users will eventually know that if Majken claimed Nexus, Wusikstation and Massive was useless and crappy without having played them he's not to be trusted when saying negative things about Komplexer.

/Majken

[AgonisThorn]

Here's a word of advice to the mods, and no I'm not talking about kevvvvv but rather all the mods including Ben. Don't ever, ever, ever delete threads unless they're actually spam from ad-bots or what-not.../Majken

+1 (if not more). Rarely have I agreed so completely with ANY post in ANY forum. The process as described by Majken is precisely how it's handled in the few other fora in which I DO participate. I've been trying to follow the goings-on regarding these threads, but without access to the original threads, it all becomes "he said/she said" and I am unable to judge the validity of ANY posts that reference the original situation. I feel that THAT has become the main point of discussion - not whether it was right to remove the original threads, but whether it is right to remove ANY thread and leave members in the uncomfortable position in which I find myself.

I'm a glutton for information, as (I perceive) are most musicians, and most intelligent folk in general. Keeping it from us is never a good idea. I'll never know if what I didn't get to read here would have been useful information, but that's the problem: I'll never know, and that's wrong.

[Zmies]

I agree with Majken. There's always another, better way than censorship.

-zmies

[Sascha Franck]

I can only say I agree totally with BONES and Majken.
The deletion of said thread was totally uncalled for and while I still think that you (kevvvvv) are a nice person, this was just some unjustified overreaction, caused by whatever feelings. And yes, I watched the thread until the very last post.
Human nature, yeah. So I can get over it easily. But please don't try to justify anything.

[Sascha Franck]

Oh, and btw, at least it's great that you finally *are* responding to the issue.
So, from my side, no hard feelings anymore.

[BONES]

Here's a word of advice to the mods, and no I'm not talking about kevvvvv but rather all the mods including Ben. Don't ever, ever, ever delete threads unless they're actually spam from ad-bots or what-not.

Deleting a thread because of a heated argument is kind of like burning evidence in a lawsuit. If no one is able to look at the evidence it's impossible to make your mind up on who's wrong and who's right. The result will be a bunch of people that are going to assume they're being censored.

Just lock the threads and edit any posts that break forum rules. But edit them with a text clearly saying "Deleted by forum mod" or something similar. If good threads goes off topic and ends up in flame wars, split them and move the bad part to an off topic forum. Leave a link and warn users that going off topic again will result in locked threads.

If threads aren't deleted it's easier to know what's ok and what isn't. It's also easier to spot users constantly breaking the rules. Other users will eventually know that if Majken claimed Nexus, Wusikstation and Massive was useless and crappy without having played them he's not to be trusted when saying negative things about Komplexer.

/Majken

Excellently put. The other problem is that the good goes out with the bad which, as I pointed out, opens the door for another, more insidious kind of abuse of the system.
Until this row it had never occurred to me that any content would be removed, except maybe for obvious spam. Now I see that Muff Wiggler has joined in and deleted threads too. It makes me think that maybe KVR is not the kind of place I want to bother with any more. This episode has greatly disillusioned me.

[whyterabbyt]

Until this row it had never occurred to me that any content would be removed, except maybe for obvious spam.

You need to be more observant then. Its always occurred. Although generally its almost always been restricted to threads which have (a) broken the rules or (b) broken out in flamefests. However it has been misused in the past, including one long-gone moderator of the KVR competitions who deleted a set of unofficial 'alternative' competition threads.

In this instance, you've made your point. Are you just picking at the scab now?

[BONES]

I'm just waiting around in the hope that maybe we might get assurances that this kind of thing won't happen again. So far all we've got is vague justifications for unjustifiable actions.

[Hol]

Why did you delete the threads? I'm all intrigued now and have wasted 15 minutes that I'll never get back reading all these posts! Now I'll never know, lol