A Kick pedal Question

[frog_jr]

Hi all, I'm not a drummer by training but I've always enjoyed tapping out a rhythm on whatever solid surface is nearby so I thought I'd try to do something with that. I've been slowly working toward developing this.

My current problem is the kick drum. I bought a couple nice bass drum mechanisms for standard drums, installed some Roland sensors and beaters and I'm playing with them through my Alesis IO-101. They sound good, and maybe with a little time and practice I'll come to love them. But right now I'm questioning the usefulness of emulating the whole kick drum mechanism every time you want to play drums. I mean, why not just have a piezo sensor and tap your foot on it, instead of have a chain-driven beater? What's up? Or maybe more precisely, what are the issues that cause the chain-driven beater mechanism to prevail over other, perhaps simpler ways of doing it, like tapping your foot on a sensor directly?

(And as a minor unrelated thought, why do they have to do chain drive anyway? Why not direct drive?)

So I'm thinking of putting a couple piezo discs on a piece of plywood and covering them with padding, and trying those instead. And I'm putting the call for anybody with experience in DIY bass drum pedals to offer their advice. Please, anybody?

[ObiWonder]

Hi all, I'm not a drummer by training but I've always enjoyed tapping out a rhythm on whatever solid surface is nearby so I thought I'd try to do something with that. I've been slowly working toward developing this.

My current problem is the kick drum. I bought a couple nice bass drum mechanisms for standard drums, installed some Roland sensors and beaters and I'm playing with them through my Alesis IO-101. They sound good, and maybe with a little time and practice I'll come to love them. But right now I'm questioning the usefulness of emulating the whole kick drum mechanism every time you want to play drums. I mean, why not just have a piezo sensor and tap your foot on it, instead of have a chain-driven beater? What's up? Or maybe more precisely, what are the issues that cause the chain-driven beater mechanism to prevail over other, perhaps simpler ways of doing it, like tapping your foot on a sensor directly?

(And as a minor unrelated thought, why do they have to do chain drive anyway? Why not direct drive?)

So I'm thinking of putting a couple piezo discs on a piece of plywood and covering them with padding, and trying those instead. And I'm putting the call for anybody with experience in DIY bass drum pedals to offer their advice. Please, anybody?

The Kick pedal was made to hit a large drum with your foot. Your just triggering samples so ya you don't need the whole pedal but I prefer it. Feels more like drumming. But technically ya that sounds interesting.

When I had my MPC1000 with the JJ OS I plugged in two keyboard pedals and used them as hi hat/Bass drum pedals and played the pads to trigger a set. Even played a live a couple times using it. Use what works.

[RunBeerRun]

I agree, as I have to keep the volume down. I use an Ion set, where there are 2 foot pedals without beaters, you just step on a pedal. I've seen them for sale individually on Ebay before, but it's prob hard to find them.

[afreshcupofjoe]

As someone who has built electronic drums before, I can personally attest that it's more difficult to get the velocity sensitivity right with something that is foot triggered than hand, finger, or stick. You have a lot more dexterity in your hands and fingers, and the foot is generally more sloppy an difficult to control with the same precision. A clunky foot pedal makes up for that by turning it into more of a velocity based motion with a lot of resistance, and less of a precision strike. It works well. I'm sure there are simpler ways of doing it than the complicated chain mechanism, but it's not as easy as just tapping your foot on a piezo.

Also, anyone who plays drums is going to be used to the feel and response of a chain driven pedal, and probably wouldn't accept much else. You just can't get the same kind of rapid double strokes and bounce back effect with a spring loaded switch. I can drum on a chain driven pedal A LOT faster than I can tap my foot on the floor. It may be fine for non-drummers to just tap their foot on a switch, but these kinds of kits aren't really designed for them. There are things like MPC style pads for people who aren't really drummers and just want to tap things out with their fingers.

If you want, you can always just use a standard keyboard sustain pedal, but then you lose velocity sensitivity.

[Hink]

If you want, you can always just use a standard keyboard sustain pedal, but then you lose velocity sensitivity.

couldn't you use an expression pedal then?

[afreshcupofjoe]

If you want, you can always just use a standard keyboard sustain pedal, but then you lose velocity sensitivity.

couldn't you use an expression pedal then?

That wouldn't work. First of all, I've never seen an expression pedal that springs back when you stomp on it. Also, expression pedals output the distance traveled, not the velocity of the movement. You would have to add additional software or hardware to calculate the velocity from the position data, and it would still make a piss poor kick pedal-- no feel, no bounce.

[Hink]

If you want, you can always just use a standard keyboard sustain pedal, but then you lose velocity sensitivity.

couldn't you use an expression pedal then?

That wouldn't work. First of all, I've never seen an expression pedal that springs back when you stomp on it.

that wouldn't stop me, I could fabricate a spring system so it did and one that would have adjustable tension no problem.

Also, expression pedals output the distance traveled, not the velocity of the movement. You would have to add additional software or hardware to calculate the velocity from the position data, and it would still make a piss poor kick pedal-- no feel, no bounce.

but again I could easily fabricate a 'stop' with the spring system to limit the range. I'm sure most devolopers could creat a speed to velocity program (I'm diy big time but not with coding software ) if it doesn't already exist.

I could also probably with enough thought convert a kick pedal to run the pot on the expression pedal with the chain drive from the kick pedal (there by gear size I could control the range so a short distance turns the pot it's entire range plus it would return to it's default position). Put a foam beater on it so it hits a piece of wood silently and weight it to feel natural.

I think velocity pads are probably much, much better and I'm not a drummer...my way certainly isn't cheap...but I think it can be done...that's just how I am

[SuperFly76]

Hi all, I'm not a drummer by training but I've always enjoyed tapping out a rhythm on whatever solid surface is nearby so I thought I'd try to do something with that. I've been slowly working toward developing this.

My current problem is the kick drum. I bought a couple nice bass drum mechanisms for standard drums, installed some Roland sensors and beaters and I'm playing with them through my Alesis IO-101. They sound good, and maybe with a little time and practice I'll come to love them. But right now I'm questioning the usefulness of emulating the whole kick drum mechanism every time you want to play drums. I mean, why not just have a piezo sensor and tap your foot on it, instead of have a chain-driven beater? What's up? Or maybe more precisely, what are the issues that cause the chain-driven beater mechanism to prevail over other, perhaps simpler ways of doing it, like tapping your foot on a sensor directly?

(And as a minor unrelated thought, why do they have to do chain drive anyway? Why not direct drive?)

So I'm thinking of putting a couple piezo discs on a piece of plywood and covering them with padding, and trying those instead. And I'm putting the call for anybody with experience in DIY bass drum pedals to offer their advice. Please, anybody?

Kick drum triggers with pedals are made for drummers who are used to playing with a pedal. There are certain methods and techniques we drummers employ when using a proper drum beater and pedal.

If you're not a drummer, or are a drummer willing to do something different, then attaching some piezo pickups to a piece of plywood is an excellent idea. Even though I'm a drummer, I've made a few similar devices. What I'd recommend doing is sandwiching the piezo pickup between 2 sheets of plywood. I wouldn't put padding on top as that would dull the high frequencies and mess with the attack that the drum module needs to trigger the sample. Rubber feet on the bottom will keep it in place. One piezo in the center should do the job. Make sure you route out space for the leads so they don't get smashed in there.

Doug

[frog_jr]

Hey all, thanks for the great replies. Superfly76, that is really great input. I will try sandwiching a piezo as you say. And afreshcupofjoe, great input thanks, and I don't think you can use an expression pedal as easily as lots of other things, but I'm sure you can do it. But your observations on mechanical beaters etc and the dexterity of the feet etc. is very much to the point. I'll let you know if I get it going and I still suspect that the use of a beater and the chain drive or whatever are all conventions that are really really well suited to ordinary drum kits and simulations, but not necessary for electronic drums. I think I can set up the sensitivity with the IO-101 or whatever it's called to accommodate the less dexterious feet without using beaters.

You know, I'd never sat at a drumset before but with these pedals I suddenly got a feel like the center of my body, my spine, were all suddenly integrated into the drums, and if I possessed a full drum set I bet I'd get a major rush out of playing with it. It's like being at the controls of a fine-tuned machine or something. But my paltry excuse for training in drums comes mostly from people who play hand drums around a campfire or a drum circle with a bunch of trippin hippies so the experience of being at a drumset is not what I'm accustomed to.

Or aiming for, really, although I wanted to be kinda clear that I recognize what a mighty thing it is apparently to play a real drumset. I recognize that.

[afreshcupofjoe]

You know, I'd never sat at a drumset before but with these pedals I suddenly got a feel like the center of my body, my spine, were all suddenly integrated into the drums, and if I possessed a full drum set I bet I'd get a major rush out of playing with it. It's like being at the controls of a fine-tuned machine or something.

Absolutely spot on! I dearly miss my drum set, but I don't have room for it in my little apartment. It is definitely one of the most exhilarating instruments to really play. Unfortunately it's also one of the most inconvenient due to it's size and decibel level. I tried to replace it with an electronic drum set, but it just wasn't the same.

[ObiWonder]

As someone who has built electronic drums before, I can personally attest that it's more difficult to get the velocity sensitivity right with something that is foot triggered than hand, finger, or stick. You have a lot more dexterity in your hands and fingers, and the foot is generally more sloppy an difficult to control with the same precision. A clunky foot pedal makes up for that by turning it into more of a velocity based motion with a lot of resistance, and less of a precision strike. It works well. I'm sure there are simpler ways of doing it than the complicated chain mechanism, but it's not as easy as just tapping your foot on a piezo.

Also, anyone who plays drums is going to be used to the feel and response of a chain driven pedal, and probably wouldn't accept much else. You just can't get the same kind of rapid double strokes and bounce back effect with a spring loaded switch. I can drum on a chain driven pedal A LOT faster than I can tap my foot on the floor. It may be fine for non-drummers to just tap their foot on a switch, but these kinds of kits aren't really designed for them. There are things like MPC style pads for people who aren't really drummers and just want to tap things out with their fingers.

If you want, you can always just use a standard keyboard sustain pedal, but then you lose velocity sensitivity.

Never thought of this, but I do understand that feeling. Something as a drummer I would miss for sure if I had to actually go in on a song and drum it up a bit.

[frog_jr]

Just to follow up, I have tried sandwiching a couple sensors between thin sheets of plywood and have not got that working satisfactorily yet, but in the mean time I've been having a lot of fun with these pedals. I'm glad I bought some good drum pedals, this is great. No doubt I'll continue with the plywood experiment sometime over the next few weeks, and when I do I'll post. My thought is to try getting rid of the plywood on top of the sensor, put a layer or two of something, like vinyl shelf liner or cardboard, instead and put some tape over it and try that, maybe tapping with no shoes.

And in the mean time I'm discovering that having the right shoes really helps me with these drum pedals. These are fun!

[Hink]

would you mind if I had Meffy move this to the DIY forum?

[frog_jr]

No, go ahead.