Synth song (you review me, I review you!) New Jan. 17th!

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

While we're on the subject of this forum in general, couple of last points and then I'll move on.

1. I think it's great that Aaron offers to review our music in exchange for a review of his. I think there should be more of that here.

It might be an interesting adjunct to what is already here, but not in isolation.

My opinion is that members should review others' music without thought of getting anything back. From the little I've seen of Aaron, I don't get the impression that it's because he just doesn't care, but the result is still the same i.e It looks like he can only be bothered to spend a bit of time on others, if they first 'scratch his back'.

So, no...I don't think that's how the Music Cafe should be

[wagtunes]

While we're on the subject of this forum in general, couple of last points and then I'll move on.

1. I think it's great that Aaron offers to review our music in exchange for a review of his. I think there should be more of that here.

It might be an interesting adjunct to what is already here, but not in isolation.

My opinion is that members should review others' music without thought of getting anything back. From the little I've seen of Aaron, I don't get the impression that it's because he just doesn't care, but the result is still the same i.e It looks like he can only be bothered to spend a bit of time on others, if they first 'scratch his back'.

So, no...I don't think that's how the Music Cafe should be

Then, IMO, we might as well shut this place down because with few exceptions, most of the people here have no interest in the music of others. They just want to post their music and pretty much the hell with everybody else.

That, IMO, is not a healthy forum. Because eventually, people who DO comment on the music of others get tired of everything being so one sided and they just say "the hell with it" and they too stop commenting.

If you think I'm kidding, look around. It's the same few people commenting on what's posted here. 90% of the people here will post their music and then that's the extend of their participation.

It's pitiful. And it breeds apathy.

But whatever. You obviously feel this forum is fine the way it is so my going on about this any longer is pointless.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

While we're on the subject of this forum in general, couple of last points and then I'll move on.

1. I think it's great that Aaron offers to review our music in exchange for a review of his. I think there should be more of that here.

It might be an interesting adjunct to what is already here, but not in isolation.

My opinion is that members should review others' music without thought of getting anything back. From the little I've seen of Aaron, I don't get the impression that it's because he just doesn't care, but the result is still the same i.e It looks like he can only be bothered to spend a bit of time on others, if they first 'scratch his back'.

So, no...I don't think that's how the Music Cafe should be

Then, IMO, we might as well shut this place down because with few exceptions, most of the people here have no interest in the music of others. They just want to post their music and pretty much the hell with everybody else.

That, IMO, is not a healthy forum. Because eventually, people who DO comment on the music of others get tired of everything being so one sided and they just say "the hell with it" and they too stop commenting.

If you think I'm kidding, look around. It's the same few people commenting on what's posted here. 90% of the people here will post their music and then that's the extend of their participation.

It's pitiful. And it breeds apathy.

But whatever. You obviously feel this forum is fine the way it is so my going on about this any longer is

Then, IMO, we might as well shut this place down because with few exceptions, most of the people here have no interest in the music of others. They just want to post their music and pretty much the hell with everybody else.

No need to be so dramatic. There are many reasons why people might not have the time or energy to listen and review. You seem to have the luxury of dedicating all your time to making and listening to music. That others can manage to just about squeeze making music into their lives is a miracle, so I don't think we should expect them to spend all their free time listening to others.

That's not to say that this is the case for everybody. But there still might be other reasons why folk might not want to review the work of others. Perhaps some have listened but feel too inexperienced to offer advice. Maybe some think they'd rather keep quiet than leave a scathing review. Maybe others spend all their time helping and reviewing elsewhere on the net, and come to KVR for other reasons. Maybe others just don't want to (It's not obligatory, and here are many other reasons for people to want to be here, without being forced to do what others think they should do).

And yes, others probably don't give a shit.

Besides, this is the exact argument I'm trying to make about mr. Aardvark i.e that he seems to have no interest in the music of others, unless he has something he wants to share. Not sure how you are so quick to support this when it reeks of the apathy you are describing.

eventually, people who DO comment on the music of others get tired of everything being so one sided and they just say "the hell with it" and they too stop commenting.

I've been commenting on tracks, on and off, for over ten years. Last month was the first time I posted my music, other than the contest entries I submitted. I listen to enjoy listening, and I review if I think I can offer any help. That's it!

If you think I'm kidding, look around. It's the same few people commenting on what's posted here. 90% of the people here will post their music and then that's the extend of their .

Ok! Look! It's not as though I don't understand your frustration (There is at least one member in the MC that's really starting to aggravate me). I just think that if you truly enjoy listening, and reviewing (and hopefully helping), then just keep on doing it. This can't be the first moment in your life that you've realised you can't control others Just keep doing it. Hopefully people will follow the lead. If not, then...

You obviously feel this forum is fine the way it is

I didn't say it was fine. And whether I think it's fine or not doesn't change the fact that it is what it is. But, yes...it would be nice to see it thriving.

The truth is that this is primarily a music-tech site. So if you really want the kind of interaction you seem to be after, then maybe you'll find other places are more active.

[aaron aardvark]

wagtunes,
Thank you for listening, and commenting, I appreciate it! I also appreciate you defending me a bit. I actually started doing the "I will review you, if you review me" thing, when it was very popular on a different forum (I did not start the idea on that forum). At its peak, I sometimes was getting 50+ reviews on a single song (or two) on that forum. Over time, people (on that forum) started flaking out on returning the favor, and that forum has become relatively dead over the years: most everyone wants a review, but many can't be bothered to do the same for others. If everyone had that attitude, no one would get their music reviewed. With my song "Mountaintop", adding MLK's speech phrases was somewhat of an afterthought. I feel I kind of lucked out that MLK's natural speaking rhythm (and crowd replies) seemed to fit pretty well with my instrumental. The one time I got a positive comment on a song of mine from Urs Heckmann (u-he founder) was on this song. Yet, some people were not keen on me adding MLK's speech to my song, even though U-2 had done something similar years earlier, and I didn't hear anyone complain about that. I will now seek out your mega-thread.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

wagtunes,Thank you for listening, and commenting, I appreciate it! I also appreciate you defending me a bit.

If I've attacked you then I apologise. However, I'd be interested to know what you saw as me attacking you. The worst I seem to have said was that I think your manner of reviewing was the kind of apathetic that Wags had described as the state of the MC). But even that wasn't an attack on you. Furthermore, I had already clarified that:

From the little I've seen of Aaron, I don't get the impression that it's because he just doesn't care

And even initially, all I said was that I avoid reviewing your tracks because I personally don't like the 'terms of engagement'. (We did the deed, once, I believe But after watching it play out over time, I decided I didn't want to get involved).

Either way, it wasn't a slant at you as a person

I actually started doing the "I will review you, if you review me" thing, when it was very popular on a different forum (I did not start the idea on that forum).

Like I already said, I think as an adjunct to the normal reviewing behaviour, it might not be a bad idea. However, for it to work it needs to be in the context of a thriving forum. That's not what the MC currently is. And I don't think the best way to achieve it is to only offer one-for-one commentary. And it's what I find strange about Wags' defending of the idea i.e it seems anathema to the spirit of everybody listening to the music of others, for the sake of celebrating and loving music.

There are also negatives to being 'bound' to review someone who has reviewed your work

most everyone wants a review, but many can't be bothered to do the same for others. If everyone had that attitude, no one would get their music reviewed.

Again (And not to toot my own horn), I have been reviewing music here (not always consistently) for many years, and the first time I remember submitting my own work was a couple of months ago. Some of us are just happy to listen and review, for the sake of listening (personal enjoyment), and reviewing (Hopefully to offer applause, help or constructive criticism), without the expectation of anything in return. Personally, I think that should be the culture we should be encouraging

[ariston]

There are also negatives to being 'bound' to review someone who has reviewed your work

Not wanting to distract from the song (this is the music cafe, after all), but you make some good points. I start to listen to a lot of stuff here, and I'll only leave a comment if I really like something or have some constructive criticism (or both). In any case, ONLY if I really listened to the track once or twice all the way til the end with undivided attention. A lot just leaves me cold, which is cool, because it's like that for everyone; if that happens, I'll skip it and go.

The result of feeling obligated to leave a comment leads to a lot of offhand, nondescript comments that are made just for the sake of commenting. It breeds a vapid thumbs-up culture in which everybody has won, and all must have prizes.

[wagtunes]

There are also negatives to being 'bound' to review someone who has reviewed your work

Not wanting to distract from the song (this is the music cafe, after all), but you make some good points. I start to listen to a lot of stuff here, and I'll only leave a comment if I really like something or have some constructive criticism (or both). In any case, ONLY if I really listened to the track once or twice all the way til the end with undivided attention. A lot just leaves me cold, which is cool, because it's like that for everyone; if that happens, I'll skip it and go.

The result of feeling obligated to leave a comment leads to a lot of offhand, nondescript comments that are made just for the sake of commenting. It breeds a vapid thumbs-up culture in which everybody has won, and all must have prizes.

Except it doesn't have to be that way. When I leave comments on songs I am honest. Sometimes brutally so. Why can't we just be a giving community, listen to each other's songs and offer honest feedback on those songs?

I mean is it REALLY asking so much?

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

There are also negatives to being 'bound' to review someone who has reviewed your work

Not wanting to distract from the song (this is the music cafe, after all), but you make some good points. I start to listen to a lot of stuff here, and I'll only leave a comment if I really like something or have some constructive criticism (or both). In any case, ONLY if I really listened to the track once or twice all the way til the end with undivided attention. A lot just leaves me cold, which is cool, because it's like that for everyone; if that happens, I'll skip it and go.

The result of feeling obligated to leave a comment leads to a lot of offhand, nondescript comments that are made just for the sake of commenting. It breeds a vapid thumbs-up culture in which everybody has won, and all must have prizes.

Nail. Head. Hit!

If I find I have nothing positive or constructive to say, normally i'll leave well alone. But there are also cases where I've finally learnt that no amount of constructive-ness(?), positivity or whatever I might leave, will be taken in the spirit intended. And I just can't be bothered doing that dance, anymore.

To the same end, I think that people should remain in their wheelhouse. If one isn't familiar with a particular genre, or the culture surrounding it, then they should approach the aspects about the piece they can relate to e.g mix quality etc. or just leave well alone.

But your second paragraph really rings true. I would rather have no comments, than a thousand cookie-cutter, 'have some social proof' comments. I know I have been guilty of leaving some vapid comments, but in my defence it's often as a balm to soothe after others have torn the poor op a new arse-hole

[wagtunes]

There are also negatives to being 'bound' to review someone who has reviewed your work

Not wanting to distract from the song (this is the music cafe, after all), but you make some good points. I start to listen to a lot of stuff here, and I'll only leave a comment if I really like something or have some constructive criticism (or both). In any case, ONLY if I really listened to the track once or twice all the way til the end with undivided attention. A lot just leaves me cold, which is cool, because it's like that for everyone; if that happens, I'll skip it and go.

The result of feeling obligated to leave a comment leads to a lot of offhand, nondescript comments that are made just for the sake of commenting. It breeds a vapid thumbs-up culture in which everybody has won, and all must have prizes.

Nail. Head. Hit!

If I find I have nothing positive or constructive to say, normally i'll leave well alone. But there are also cases where I've finally learnt that no amount of constructive-ness(?), positivity or whatever I might leave, will be taken in the spirit intended. And I just can't be bothered doing that dance, anymore.

To the same end, I think that people should remain in their wheelhouse. If one isn't familiar with a particular genre, or the culture surrounding it, then they should approach the aspects about the piece they can relate to e.g mix quality etc. or just leave well alone.

But your second paragraph really rings true. I would rather have one honest critique of my music, left by someone who actually paid attention while listening (Even if they ended up not really liking it), than a thousand cookie-cutter, 'have some social proof' comments. I know I have been guilty of leaving some vapid comments, but in my defence it's often as a balm to soothe after others have torn the poor op a new arse-hole

Except you've never treated me with kid gloves even after I was torn apart. And you know what? I now appreciate it more than you can possibly imagine. All the bashing (Vocaloid, mix, singing, etc.) helped make me better at all this. If nothing else you have to admit that there has been improvement. That's largely due to the bashing I took here. I simply got tired of it and finally decided that I was going to do whatever I had to in order to improve. I think I've done that.

You do nobody any favors by being nice just for the sake of being nice. If I had learned that lesson years ago, it wouldn't have taken me over 40 years to start getting decent at doing this.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

There are also negatives to being 'bound' to review someone who has reviewed your work

Not wanting to distract from the song (this is the music cafe, after all), but you make some good points. I start to listen to a lot of stuff here, and I'll only leave a comment if I really like something or have some constructive criticism (or both). In any case, ONLY if I really listened to the track once or twice all the way til the end with undivided attention. A lot just leaves me cold, which is cool, because it's like that for everyone; if that happens, I'll skip it and go.

The result of feeling obligated to leave a comment leads to a lot of offhand, nondescript comments that are made just for the sake of commenting. It breeds a vapid thumbs-up culture in which everybody has won, and all must have prizes.

Nail. Head. Hit!

If I find I have nothing positive or constructive to say, normally i'll leave well alone. But there are also cases where I've finally learnt that no amount of constructive-ness(?), positivity or whatever I might leave, will be taken in the spirit intended. And I just can't be bothered doing that dance, anymore.

To the same end, I think that people should remain in their wheelhouse. If one isn't familiar with a particular genre, or the culture surrounding it, then they should approach the aspects about the piece they can relate to e.g mix quality etc. or just leave well alone.

But your second paragraph really rings true. I would rather have one honest critique of my music, left by someone who actually paid attention while listening (Even if they ended up not really liking it), than a thousand cookie-cutter, 'have some social proof' comments. I know I have been guilty of leaving some vapid comments, but in my defence it's often as a balm to soothe after others have torn the poor op a new arse-hole

Except you've never treated me with kid gloves even after I was torn apart.

No! I treat others with kid gloves after you've ripped them apart. If I were to have the intention of commenting in the same way to you as you do to others, I just wouldn't bother. Now, due to your basic inability to even deal with constructive criticism (Plus various other reasons) I just don't comment on your music at all. I still sometimes listen, and there is always something positive to note. But it's too much of a dance, and ultimately you have made it clear that you don't really care how your music comes over. If you can't be bothered to care bout the results of your work, then I'm not going to bother doing the delicate dance of getting you to
try to do better.

Also, I feel you don't need any help dealing with people who supposedly tear you apart. You just make a 'foe' of anybody who you decide is not commenting in an appropriate manner. The fact that you even think it's appropriate to treat others in a way you perceive yourself to have been treated, is already a huge red flag.

And you know what? I now appreciate it more than you can possibly imagine. All the bashing (Vocaloid, mix, singing, etc.) helped make me better at all this. If nothing else you have to admit that there has been improvement. That's largely due to the bashing I took here. I simply got tired of it and finally decided that I was going to do whatever I had to in order to improve. I think I've done that.

You know, I bet there are a few comments I've left where I've either been exasperated with you, or have given in to mob-rule, for a brief moment, but I think that overwhelmingly my comments o you have been motivated by edging you towards being better. Me telling you I hate Vocaloid is not an attack on you. In fact, you may find that not only was I doing that because I thought your music was good enough to not warrant being ruined by the use of it, but that I was among the first who encouraged you to start singing; and then among the first to compliment your first efforts, in a bid to encourage you to get better (Interestingly, at the time, I had sworn to never communicate with you again, after you'd accused me - with zero real provocation - of being your biggest sworn enemy, on these forums. And yet despite avoiding you, I still managed to find it in me to try and encourage you.

There are indeed those people in the world that thrive off being beaten down, and rising up victoriously, but I don't believe you are one of them. Sure, you may get up, dust yourself down, and swear that you'll show everybody. But ultimately, I think you realise that that kind of negative energy only burns for so long, and it's a dirty fuel

And if you truly believe that the reason you've improved is because people have been unkind to you, then why are you blocking people from continuing to do so? And why would you assume that just because it was at the root of your success, that it would be appropriate treatment for everybody else? Clearly, some people need nurturing, so maybe hold off with the 'slap'.

You do nobody any favors by being nice just for the sake of being nice. If I had learned that lesson years ago, it wouldn't have taken me over 40 years to start getting decent at doing this.

But the opposite of having nothing good to say isn't being nasty, or...'honest'; It's just not saying anything at all.

And I don't see the connection between that and you taking so long to "start getting decent". Seems like it's not so much that you needed people to be nasty, rather than blowing sunshine up your arse, but that you needed people who knew more than you did, helping you towards improvement.

[wagtunes]

To much to respond to so I'll just say this. I've made a lot of mistakes. I wish I could undo them but I can't. The only thing I can do now is try to move forward.

Finally, there is a difference between people criticizing my work and calling me a Nazi. I will not tolerate the latter. No one should. Those who are just nasty for the sake of being nasty I want nothing to do with. You can criticize my work without calling me names.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

Finally, there is a difference between people criticizing my work and calling me a Nazi. I will not tolerate the latter. No one should. Those who are just nasty for the sake of being nasty I want nothing to do with. You can criticize my work without calling me names.

Whatever that's about, it has nothing to do with anything that I said.

And just before I disappear:

You wrote in your thread, recently, something along the lines of "we're good if you can talk to me in a civil manner". I didn't respond then, because I'd just had enough, But before I do disappear, I will respond.

Talking in a civil manner is no gauge of anything other than than somebody has the ability to talk in a civil manner. Often people will talk in a civil manner just to maintain the peace, while talking shit behind your back. As such, to me, talking civil is not so necessary.

What is necessary for me to say that we're 'good' is the knowledge that fundamentally neither of us has the intention/will/motivation to do the other any harm. And this is where I think many of your problems stem from, here. Because your default seems to be that people are out to get you (And I think this also stems from misunderstandings), you are not able to judge people clearly. Any slight harmless joke, or a bit of light teasing, is treated like a personal attack. Then you get all defensive and it all goes to shit. With most other members it is possible to joke around, and everyone gets a laugh out of it.

To speak more of fundamental motivation: It wasn't long ago that I happily (Actually, really enjoyed) put(ting) a few hours of work into one of your tracks, with the aim of trying to help the track reach it's potential. Ironically, and apropos of this conversation, it's because you completely baulked at my critique of your track. You ended up dropping it like a plate of boiling shit (I'm guessing for contractual reasons), but that's ok. I had managed to convey what I wanted, and didn't expect any more than that). But I'm interested in why you think that someone who was out to tear you apart would go to such lengths. Like I said, if we're fundamentally 'good', then why now do you seem to be acting like I'm still attacking you, in some way. I don't need to go to such efforts to try and help, and certainly not if I am only going to be hostile to that same person in the near-future.

Maybe spend some time trying to work out who you think honestly hates you so much that they'd keep trying to destroy you, and how much of that feeling is influenced by your own negative filter. Then maybe see if things work out differently if you just lighten up a little (It's definitely interesting that you might be one of, if not the only, person who takes being quoted in the 'Out of context thread' as a personal attack).

Anyway, like I said, I'm done doing the dance with you, where I have to be so careful over every word I say to you lest you once again forget all the positives, and write me off as a foe

[wagtunes]

@el-bo

Interesting read. There is absolutely no question that I am defensive. I don't think all of it is in my own mind. In other words, I think some of it is deserved. You and I have both had issues here with a certain person who PM'd both of us. When this person did so, he literally tore me to shreds. I still have the PM.

And then there are some people who are a bit snarky and maybe they like to tease me because they know they can get a rise out of me. Those people, yeah, I probably overreact.

While it might not seem like it, I am trying to do better. For starters, I totally view you in a whole new light since you worked on that drum track me for. You have no idea how much I appreciated that and I did replace my version with yours. Something I have never done before for anybody.

My response to you was not meant as an attack against you or anything like that. I just wanted you to maybe see my side of things. I mean it does take two. I didn't cause these problems all on my own. I had help. Yes, I could have been the bigger man. Yes, I could have tried to diffuse the situation. Hell, I could have simply ignored them. I'm not perfect. But I'm trying. And believe it or not, I can admit when I'm wrong. But when people don't even criticize my music and attack me personally, I won't stand for it. And nobody should.

But the thing that drives me crazy about these people is that I will never go into their threads and attack them. I try to stay as far away from them as possible. Yet, they feel it's perfectly acceptable to come to my threads, not even comment on the music, and then proceed to troll the thread with totally off topic nonsense, or worse, come at me personally. And you know I'm not making this up because all the comments are all there for anybody to read.

But, again, I'm trying to do better. That's all I can do.

[vurt]

im not a huge admirer of the "return listen" thing.
doesmt seem fair to expect anyone to listen to 40 minutes of random noise if ive listened to a 4 minute rock type thing.

i listen (when i can) because i enjoy some peoples music here and im always happy to try something new (unless you're an ass) not because i expect return listens.

that said, id love it if the cafe was similar to many years ago too, where songs/noises where posted pretty much constantly. also with lots more individuals just commenting.
but the internet has changed "social media" is where it's at now, people dont have time to spend on favebook and forums, so fb kills everything.
just like amazon killed your high street.

[aaron aardvark]

el-bo,
I don't think you were personally attacking me, so don't worry about that. It is just that I appreciated that wagtunes spent some time and effort to defend me, and things like that don't happen everyday for me.

el-bo and everyone else,
I understand that not everyone is keen on the "if you review me, I will review you" concept. I can understand why that concept might put someone off. All I know is this, I get way more music reviews when I follow this concept, and I have seen other forums and people use this concept rather successfully. It gets old real fast if you review a bunch of other peoples' songs and you get zero reviews. I remember over 10 years ago, when I might get a single music review in an entire month and be happy anybody replied at all. I don't want to go back to that situation.