My Violin (Cello, Uprightbass) ImpulseResponse secret... MFreeformEQ, MConvolution, MCabinet
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 527 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
... which is of course no real secret in a way, because it just combines 2 common steps.
This is how my E-violin sounds:
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN%20sound.mp3
& This is the original UNPROCESSED E-Violin-Sound...
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN sound DRY.mp3
Anyway, I am 'fiddling' around with it for some time and I am fed up with keeping it as my secret weapon instead of discussing it in a community. That makes more sense, because maybe that way we can put something together which makes this process a lot easier!?
So the Idea is very similar to MCabinet, which I have the impression does not work so well for violin.
I will try to explain how my way works:
I There are 2 different scenarios:
1. An acoustic violin with a pickup
2. An E-Violin
which should sound like a real violin and we all know, this is a struggle since there are pickups and E-violins and it seems to be even worse than with Acoustic Guitars with a piezo-Pickup.
II And there are two basic processes which can help to pimp the electric violin Sound in the acoustic direction.
1. Make an impulse response from the corpus of the violin
(For that you need a small hammer or similar and a Microphon (small condenser in some cases preferred, but any microphone will work, which gives you a nice acoustic violin sound) and then be creative. I have the impression, that there is no standard way of doing it. It would help, if you standardize your way to have coherent output, if you want to process many of these impulses. And I think it helps a lot, if it's bright sounding, because that's the most important range in the violin spectrum and a neutral impulse response from an instrument-body sounds bright somehow. )
After you have your impulse response you have to tweak it, to be useful. In most cases it will lack high frequencies... Now there is a perfect way to adopt it's frequency range:
2. With MFreeformEQ you compare your electric (pickup or bodyless e-violin output) violin signal processedwith that impulse response to that sound with a microphone. It seems that this is a personal process for each instrument and each setup, because violinsound ca vary soooo much and pickupsound can vary soooo much.
So the easiest way is to record your pickup-sound and your microphone sound at the same time and then you have exactly the same source for comparing. In Freeform EQ you learn the Target (Violin Pickup with MConvolution loaded with the IR you produced) and the Source (The acoustic Microphone sound) and then "Make Target sound like source". That makes a lot difference and I have to say, that the eviolin sound is so much harder to get THAT sound.
Doing this with an E-Violin you have to play the same notes on the acoustic and the E and then compare the Convolution processed E violin with the acoustic ... but that is really much harder, to get satified.
It is important to set MFreeform EQ to Minimum phase and Extreme Quality. Without minimum phase you would have latency.
You could produce an IR from that combination, but you have to cut it again and for that reason it woukld be fantastic, to have a Melda-device which combines both: MConvolver and Freeform EQ.
If I understand the concept of MCabinet right, this device will not work very well for violin. It sounds quite nice, but it seems not to have that woody vibrating violin Corpus.
Correct me, if I'm wrong.
After that again adding saturation, Equing and reverb rounds it up to a phenomenal live-sound which I have not heard so far live from a pickupped violin.
There's even a really evil way, to make sound your Violin like a Cello and even like an Upright-base. It really works and is absolutely insane in a Live context. I wouldn't use that for recording
Maybe we can build something together or help each other!?
Martin
This is how my E-violin sounds:
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN%20sound.mp3
& This is the original UNPROCESSED E-Violin-Sound...
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN sound DRY.mp3
Anyway, I am 'fiddling' around with it for some time and I am fed up with keeping it as my secret weapon instead of discussing it in a community. That makes more sense, because maybe that way we can put something together which makes this process a lot easier!?
So the Idea is very similar to MCabinet, which I have the impression does not work so well for violin.
I will try to explain how my way works:
I There are 2 different scenarios:
1. An acoustic violin with a pickup
2. An E-Violin
which should sound like a real violin and we all know, this is a struggle since there are pickups and E-violins and it seems to be even worse than with Acoustic Guitars with a piezo-Pickup.
II And there are two basic processes which can help to pimp the electric violin Sound in the acoustic direction.
1. Make an impulse response from the corpus of the violin
(For that you need a small hammer or similar and a Microphon (small condenser in some cases preferred, but any microphone will work, which gives you a nice acoustic violin sound) and then be creative. I have the impression, that there is no standard way of doing it. It would help, if you standardize your way to have coherent output, if you want to process many of these impulses. And I think it helps a lot, if it's bright sounding, because that's the most important range in the violin spectrum and a neutral impulse response from an instrument-body sounds bright somehow. )
After you have your impulse response you have to tweak it, to be useful. In most cases it will lack high frequencies... Now there is a perfect way to adopt it's frequency range:
2. With MFreeformEQ you compare your electric (pickup or bodyless e-violin output) violin signal processedwith that impulse response to that sound with a microphone. It seems that this is a personal process for each instrument and each setup, because violinsound ca vary soooo much and pickupsound can vary soooo much.
So the easiest way is to record your pickup-sound and your microphone sound at the same time and then you have exactly the same source for comparing. In Freeform EQ you learn the Target (Violin Pickup with MConvolution loaded with the IR you produced) and the Source (The acoustic Microphone sound) and then "Make Target sound like source". That makes a lot difference and I have to say, that the eviolin sound is so much harder to get THAT sound.
Doing this with an E-Violin you have to play the same notes on the acoustic and the E and then compare the Convolution processed E violin with the acoustic ... but that is really much harder, to get satified.
It is important to set MFreeform EQ to Minimum phase and Extreme Quality. Without minimum phase you would have latency.
You could produce an IR from that combination, but you have to cut it again and for that reason it woukld be fantastic, to have a Melda-device which combines both: MConvolver and Freeform EQ.
If I understand the concept of MCabinet right, this device will not work very well for violin. It sounds quite nice, but it seems not to have that woody vibrating violin Corpus.
Correct me, if I'm wrong.
After that again adding saturation, Equing and reverb rounds it up to a phenomenal live-sound which I have not heard so far live from a pickupped violin.
There's even a really evil way, to make sound your Violin like a Cello and even like an Upright-base. It really works and is absolutely insane in a Live context. I wouldn't use that for recording
Maybe we can build something together or help each other!?
Martin
Last edited by mccy on Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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MeldaProduction MeldaProduction https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=176122
- KVRAF
- 14019 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic
Thanks for the elaboration . I must say I don't play violin (one of the few instruments I'm not playing and never will ), so I don't know much about this. I also think creating a special plugin for this may be an overkill, since there probably aren't many violinists. Anyways if you'd come to some ideal "workflow", we can think about it .
I was quite surprised about the "hammer" you mentioned. I think that may the biggest bottleneck there as the "hammer" needs to produce a full spectrum and ideally even spectrum, which sounds very unlikely to me.
I was quite surprised about the "hammer" you mentioned. I think that may the biggest bottleneck there as the "hammer" needs to produce a full spectrum and ideally even spectrum, which sounds very unlikely to me.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 527 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
I'm a bit lazy right now, but I have some nice sounds here and maybe I will show them in a youtube video in the next days.
The HAMMER is not the problem. There are special hammers even built for that purpose, but that's not the point. It has not to be perfect in any way!!! The fequency adjustment is part of MFreeformEQ!!! I compare that Vioplin-Pickup-Sound to a recorded acoustic violin (That's the reason why it is so damn easy with a pickuped violin, because you can record Pickup signal and Microphone at the same time, process the pickup with MConvolution and compare it with MFreeformEQ with the Acoustic Microphone signal). Then the fequency resonse is 'normalized'. Right now I'm trying to get the maximum out of my e-violin which seems to be much harder.
There are even hardware devices which do the trick for acoustic pickuped violin which work quite well. As I said, You cannot simply copy the final sound to any othe violin-Pickup-Kombination. No Pickup sounds like the other. So there is even a potential market for that, because everybody has to do his/her own impulses. (Like fishman does, when you send them yopur guitar.)
I know many many violonists and cellists which would love to have such a live sound!
The HAMMER is not the problem. There are special hammers even built for that purpose, but that's not the point. It has not to be perfect in any way!!! The fequency adjustment is part of MFreeformEQ!!! I compare that Vioplin-Pickup-Sound to a recorded acoustic violin (That's the reason why it is so damn easy with a pickuped violin, because you can record Pickup signal and Microphone at the same time, process the pickup with MConvolution and compare it with MFreeformEQ with the Acoustic Microphone signal). Then the fequency resonse is 'normalized'. Right now I'm trying to get the maximum out of my e-violin which seems to be much harder.
There are even hardware devices which do the trick for acoustic pickuped violin which work quite well. As I said, You cannot simply copy the final sound to any othe violin-Pickup-Kombination. No Pickup sounds like the other. So there is even a potential market for that, because everybody has to do his/her own impulses. (Like fishman does, when you send them yopur guitar.)
I know many many violonists and cellists which would love to have such a live sound!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 527 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN%20sound.mp3
This is what it sounds like.
To be honest I am not a violinist too, but I just love to play the violin with all my imperfection
And yes, this is an electric violin without a body.
This is what it sounds like.
To be honest I am not a violinist too, but I just love to play the violin with all my imperfection
And yes, this is an electric violin without a body.
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MeldaProduction MeldaProduction https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=176122
- KVRAF
- 14019 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic
Sounds good I suppose (I'm no expert though ). Could you also post unprocessed signal?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 527 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
O.K., sorry for the delay... This is the original unprocessed E-Violin-Sound...
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN sound DRY.mp3
compared to the processed sound:
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN%20sound.mp3
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN sound DRY.mp3
compared to the processed sound:
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN%20sound.mp3
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- KVRist
- 474 posts since 22 Jun, 2019
Man, That sounds great to my hears! Never heard a E-violon sounding that good! I'll try to do the same with my pick up equiped flamenco guitar
- KVRist
- 298 posts since 26 May, 2016 from Byron Bay, Australia
Hey that is fantastic.
If you give me the Impulse and all the settings I will create a MXXX preset to do the whole thing.
It would be wonderful for Violin players with a piezzo pickup. The sound out of all Eviolins sound pretty similar.
Spencer
If you give me the Impulse and all the settings I will create a MXXX preset to do the whole thing.
It would be wonderful for Violin players with a piezzo pickup. The sound out of all Eviolins sound pretty similar.
Spencer
- KVRist
- 282 posts since 22 Jun, 2018
What eviolin are you using in the first place?
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 527 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
The device which seems to be able to do that convolution thing, creating own responses ist called "ToneDexter" from "Audiosprockets".
It uses another Method of convolution, right? You give the Signal of Pickup and Microphone to Two Inputs and the Maschine calculates the convolution between the two Signals (Microphone & Pickup), right?
Its 500€ which seems to be fair & I Bet it will sell Like cake at some Point...
Is this possible to build for you? That would be fantastic...
It uses another Method of convolution, right? You give the Signal of Pickup and Microphone to Two Inputs and the Maschine calculates the convolution between the two Signals (Microphone & Pickup), right?
Its 500€ which seems to be fair & I Bet it will sell Like cake at some Point...
Is this possible to build for you? That would be fantastic...
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- KVRer
- 1 posts since 11 Jan, 2022
Hi there,mccy wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:29 pm This is how my E-violin sounds:
http://www.derknott.de/EVIOLIN%20sound.mp3
I'm reviving this thread just to let you know Martin, that the violin sound you achieved with your method is absolutely brilliant! THANK YOU for sharing your knowledge and secret
I've been playing violin for 23 years now and this is the best, most realistic acoustic sound out of an electric violin I've ever heard. Not to mention I've been dealing with mics/pickups for many years too, never getting a satisfying pickup sound.
Using an IR from 3Sigma Audio + MFreeformEQ to match the sound of the microphone works quite well on my acoustic violin with pickup, but I would like to make my own IR. Could you give me some advice on how to record the IR? I have no idea on what's the best way to do it, where to tap my violin body, what "hammer" to use, etc. I would immensely appreciate your help.
Thanks!!
Eduard