Middle C = C4

[Hexspa]

Hi. Just using MAnalyzer and the Areas Keyboard and Octaves are not to my convention nor that of Scientific Pitch Notation. I hope MeldaProduction will consider adding an Octave Offset option so that C4=Middle C=261.63Hz.

I just want to add that this way makes more sense because it places the 'zero octave' where most frequencies are below normal hearing conditions. Then everything above 32Hz or so begins the 'first octave'. I realize there are at least two standards to this and at least acknowledging it in the software will help avoid confusion.

Thank you.

[Sampleconstruct]

In classical notation 261.63 Hz is named c1, YAMAHA introduced naming that frequency C3 back in the eighties, some devs use C4 for that frequency (e.g. iZotope/Melodyne), so what convention exactly are you talking about?

[DarkStar]

In most of the relevant parameters in the plug-ins 440 Hz is named A3 (is that the "Yamaha standard"?), and the MIDI note name range runs from C-2 to G8. This is in line with many software DAWs and synths.

On a standard 88-key piano keyboard, 440 Hz is played by the A4 key (which occurs in the octave that starts with the fourth C key). (That, I think is the "Roland standard).

[dmbaer]

C3, C4 and even C5 have been used to denote middle C. The C5 actually makes sense since MIDI note 0 is also C0 in that system. Whenever using these designations, I always also include a reference like "C3 = middle C" or better yet, include the MIDI note number which is not ambiguous. MIDI note 60 is middle C, period.

[arachnaut]

C3, C4 and even C5 have been used to denote middle C. The C5 actually makes sense since MIDI note 0 is also C0 in that system. Whenever using these designations, I always also include a reference like "C3 = middle C" or better yet, include the MIDI note number which is not ambiguous. MIDI note 60 is middle C, period.

In decimal.
It's 3C in hex.
It's 111100 in binary.
It's 261.625565 hertz, in concert pitch A440 tuning, but Scientific pitch, also known as philosophical pitch, Sauveur pitch or Verdi tuning, is an absolute concert pitch standard which is based on middle C (C4) being set to 256 Hz a nice power of two.

It's a bit complex.

[Hexspa]

In classical notation 261.63 Hz is named c1, YAMAHA introduced naming that frequency C3 back in the eighties, some devs use C4 for that frequency (e.g. iZotope/Melodyne), so what convention exactly are you talking about?

I was very clear and specific about which convention I am referring but Arachnaut has also echoed it.

It is a good point that dmbaer makes about MIDI 0 being C0 thereby making middle C into C5. I probably wouldn't want to use that, just as I don't like C3 being the reference, but this thread has quickly shown that there are several standards and many of us have a preference.

Given that Melda is relatively open-ended, I would like to see a Global option for specifying the C number. Thanks.

[MeldaProduction]

I'm a bit lost - why don't you simply edit the Areas settings so that it matches what you are expecting? Or is it analyzer or something else??

[Hexspa]

Thanks for replying. You'll have to forgive me since I've only had the full bundle for about three months. Despite trying to open and study the plugins daily, I hadn't yet discovered this specific editability of the zones.

That being said, I'm attaching a screen shot which shows the root of my issue. Melda plugins designate C3 as 'Middle C'. It's not like this is some awful thing but it's confusing to me when I already have a mental model of the octave ranges based on A4=440/C4=261.63Hz.

While Ableton Live also shares the C3 convention, among other manufacturers, REAPER allows you to shift the reference middle C from C3 to C4 and I find that extremely convenient. A simple check box, slider, or drop down would solve this since it is throughout the Melda experience from Analyzer frequency popups to the double-click-to-enter keyboard frequency interface.

20190721 - Images - Melda C3.png

You can see in the image that it makes sense to center around C4 since the keyboard graphic bottoms out at what I would consider C1 anyway - around 33Hz and the bottom of most practical audio. The zero octave is between 16-31Hz and is mostly unwanted in audio - thereby making Octave 1 the first octave which is usually relevant.

Additionally, the piano graphic interface which allows you to set the frequency in Hz tops out at B7 by the C3 convention. I don't see why there should be an upper limit - perhaps the extended range can be greyed out yet available. Again, practicality comes into play given that range is mostly sibilance and harmonics but it's something I want to mention here as I've found it to be a needless limitation in the past.

I realize that few, if any, customers have requested this feature but it is something I've given a bit of thought to. Though at the time of writing I used the terms 'cents' and 'Hertz' interchangeably, I developed a highly accurate yet easy-to-remember way to calculate the frequency chart:

https://hexspa.com/audio-frequency/

One last little niggle wish: if I had the option to snap the edited zones to the edge of the keys, that'd be wonderful too since now I have these unsightly gaps

In any case, I've changed the default Zones settings and can certainly work around this in the mean time but all I ask is that you consider allowing us to set the C octave number to one of our choosing just as you've given the ability to change the reference pitch in Hertz.

Thanks again for replying and your amazing tools. I look forward to many years of learning and enjoyment.

[MeldaProduction]

Thanks for the info. Now I'm afraid there's simply no way to designate any development time to this at this moment, sorry. It is actually very difficult, because there are many places these things are used, so to maintain backwards compatibility and also not confuse people... But I agree that the world could use some standard..

[Hexspa]

I appreciate your consideration.

[Hexspa]

Just want to add something. There's a three-octave difference in the octave designations among some of your plugins.

EQs and Analyzer all have C3 as middle C but Rhythmizer has C6 as middle C. In other words, MIDI note 60 is called C3 in the former and C6 in the latter. To clarify further, if MIDI note 60 is set to be called C3 then "octave 0" - as you refer to it in the linked PDF - is actually then scaled to be C-2 and not C1 - as the PDF defines.

https://www.meldaproduction.com/downloa ... hmizer.pdf

Now that I understand it, I can work around it in the mean time but this inconsistency is a source of confusion. If you get a chance, I hope you can reconsider allowing offsets, or at least aligning within the ecosystem, to the MIDI octave designations.

I had to edit this about 5 times because it's confusing to explain it even knowing what's going on. For sure, usability is one of your top concerns and that's why I'm here again to say this.

Thanks.

[MeldaProduction]

There are some inconsistences indeed, but I'm not sure if you mentioned the right ones. If I remember correctly the analyzers/tuners/... all use the same convention, but the MIDI settings have a different one (1/2 octaves different, not sure ). In MRhythmizer everything is numbered from 0 I think, because people are triggering it manually using the DAW. Anyways I agree that it would be better, if it would be the same everywhere, but backwards compatibility is a b***, and there's nothing worse than installing a new version to find that something doesn't work the same way etc... and then the custom support

[Hexspa]

Backward compatibility. Fair enough.

One thing's for certain: MIDI note 60 is C6 in MRhythmizer and C3-equivalent in Analyzer.

I'm cool with it. Just getting used to these tools. Thanks again for the response.

[Audiospaceman]

Hi Vojtech, is there any chance to build a simple Octave offset feature on your plugins so we could easily set 440Hz concert pitch to be A3, A4, A5 or else?
Seriously there is no motivation here to be absolutely correct about the standardized concert pitch. The purpose is to be able to sync Melda plugin octaves to any host octaves.
Could it be easy to keep backward compatibility as well?
Thanks

[Hexspa]

Let's be clear and say that there is no motivation for you to be correct about "concert pitch" and that the reason you're requesting this feature is to match Melda plugins with your DAW. Please be aware that at least one DAW, REAPER, allows you to select your octave offset.

As for the reason I requested a standardization, it's about matching what I've internalized - which so happens to come from traditional instruments; specifically guitar and piano i.e. A4=440. From what I can tell, 'concert pitch' is defined as "A above middle C equals 440Hz," though the octave number is not specified.

With complete respect to Melda, let's not forget that there was no octave unification among the Melda plugins themselves. The fact that, now, there is a single octave designation has to be taken as a net gain regardless of which number you put next to 262Hz.

I disagree with any laziness or disregard for extra-developer/manufacturer standards and also disagree that the sole purpose of such awareness is to match Melda's convention with any particular DAW. It is completely okay with me that you have different motivations but your use of "seriously" and bold makes me feel like you're nailing down and transferring over assumptions about everyone's needs - including mine - when my motivation is to have software match and support the user and not the other way around.

As always, I fully endorse being able to freely assign octave designations regardless of the user's impetus.