MSoundfactory design thread

[David]

…You need at least the global tab …

…"need"?
What for, in this case anyway? It's not much about input velocity, and there are no MPE features in it…
I don't actually see anything on the template Global tab that's a useful addition to this device, especially if the goal is to keep Easy Screens as simple as possible.

In truth, not yet being an MPE user I find that tab pretty obscure and uninteresting overall, except for velocity and pitch-bend ranges, not really applicable in this case, but both of which could be pulled out and put on one of the existing tabs, I suppose, and take up much less space. Pitch bend could be cool, though it never occurred to me to try it. What else do you see there that should be included in this device, or is always going to be important for any user to have access to?

As for making the GUI smaller, the newest version you posted fits on my screen. I'm actually using a desktop, so I imagine most people will have the same problem with the previous version.

My original fit on a 1920 x 1080 screen; is that a big screen for a desktop these days? It's my small screen! And my set up is definitely not high end… What's the size guideline for devices/GPresets?

Anyway making GUIs smaller is takes a bit of planning and trial and error. I try not to use more controls than needed because it will end up being too large. I also try to lay things out in rows and group certain types of controls together(buttons, switches, etc).

This Screen was built very slowly and with much care with all those points in mind, to the best of my trial and error knowledge so far, I can assure you:) And for me, it's just right!

IMO, it's as useful (and much more interesting) for designed devices to reveal other designer's perspectives, as it is for them to all to meet some LCD basics.

I'm glad to know now that it didn't suit you, naturally, and will be happy to rebuild anything for various expected user requirements, once I know better what those are. My choice in future will now be to build two versions whenever needed, one for big screens, with all the critical controls visible at once, even if there are tabs for some other stuff (hopefully not…) and another as small as possible, especially to provide choices for users who can't make their own guis.

The only other thing I would recommend is turning it down a bit because its clipping even when I lightly press a key. Although you can always turn things down manually, it creates a bad impression if the first thing you hear is clipping. I hope that helps.

Yes, it does, thanks again. I really appreciate all and any feedback. Especially about levels. They ALWAYS drive me nuts and I'll definitely keep them much lower from now on! This sounded great here, but I hadn't notice how high the Global level was set, dunno why—I don't recall even looking at that… Very useful reminder!

[David]

Here is another one I came up with.

I always find these code-pastes fascinating, generally, and I really enjoyed digging into this one to see everything you did, thanks! And I found plenty to like, too, though I'm no sort of a keys player, and still a bit baffled by Timbre controls. Randomizing got me a lot further than any knob twiddling:)

Is there a reason you didn't delete all the Edit-mode FX that weren't accessible on the Easy Screen? I enjoyed seeing what you did leave as it's not just the template un-messed with, just wondering… Building for all levels of users, I suppose…?

And IS there some info included in here somewhere? Please tell me where to look for it (I tried every "?" I could see…), and where to PUT it!

[Fourstepper]

1980x1080 is already quite big and you are definitely trying not to take the whole screen with your device. I am on desktop and I have just that resolution and trying it out was quite a nightmare.

Overall to be fair, that's my biggest complain towards melda plugins.. If I make stuff 90%, I cannot see anything, if I keep them at 100 they are kinda still too big to my liking

[David]

Is there any kind of documentation about the features of specific FX modules available in MXXX/MSF? I'm particularly looking right now for a Send device, to modulate input to FX, but have many other questions on working with these, particularly the Building Blocks. TIA!

[David]

1980x1080 is already quite big and you are definitely trying not to take the whole screen with your device. I am on desktop and I have just that resolution and trying it out was quite a nightmare.

Overall to be fair, that's my biggest complain towards melda plugins.. If I make stuff 90%, I cannot see anything, if I keep them at 100 they are kinda still too big to my liking

Of course, it doesn't take up the whole screen, just fits the height:)

But good to get the feedback, for sure; thanks. I admit I don't even use it on that screen, but on the iMac's 27-incher, where it's quite small, and as you say, hard to read!
I really do need to provide smaller versions, via tabs, I see, as well as learn how to make them all as downward rescale-able as possible. Another good, and urgently needed, video topic!

[Chandlerhimself]

Here is another one I came up with.

I always find these code-pastes fascinating, generally, and I really enjoyed digging into this one to see everything you did, thanks! And I found plenty to like, too, though I'm no sort of a keys player, and still a bit baffled by Timbre controls. Randomizing got me a lot further than any knob twiddling:)

Is there a reason you didn't delete all the Edit-mode FX that weren't accessible on the Easy Screen? I enjoyed seeing what you did leave as it's not just the template un-messed with, just wondering… Building for all levels of users, I suppose…?

And IS there some info included in here somewhere? Please tell me where to look for it (I tried every "?" I could see…), and where to PUT it!

I’m not much of a keyboard player either, so I thought I’d ask for help with this one. I was afraid the Timbre controls might be confusing, so maybe I’ll need to rename them.

Anyway, the fx are there because of carelessness. I started with the FX of the previous electric piano and then changed a few things. I just haven’t gotten around to erasing them. I’ll do that though.

The info should be available if you click the “?” next to “body”, “transient”, etc. You can also use F1 when your mouse if over a control.

[David]

…
Anyway, the fx are there because of carelessness. I started with the FX of the previous electric piano and then changed a few things. I just haven’t gotten around to erasing them. I’ll do that though.

Actually, I was delighted to find them there. Seemed like a useful message to users able to access Edit mode: "Try these; I liked em!" I did, too:)

The info should be available if you click the “?” next to “body”, “transient”, etc. You can also use F1 when your mouse if over a control.

Wow, never noticed the ?'s on Group Title headers, or whatever these are called. How/where were you able to create the text for these?

[Chandlerhimself]

…You need at least the global tab …

…"need"?
What for, in this case anyway? It's not much about input velocity, and there are no MPE features in it…
I don't actually see anything on the template Global tab that's a useful addition to this device, especially if the goal is to keep Easy Screens as simple as possible.

In truth, not yet being an MPE user I find that tab pretty obscure and uninteresting overall, except for velocity and pitch-bend ranges, not really applicable in this case, but both of which could be pulled out and put on one of the existing tabs, I suppose, and take up much less space. Pitch bend could be cool, though it never occurred to me to try it. What else do you see there that should be included in this device, or is always going to be important for any user to have access to?

To be honest I don’t know if it “needs” a global tab, but I don’t know if it will be accepted without it. It is definitely strong recommended. Without it people can’t lock certain things such as volume, pitch bend range, etc. On the fx side things like reverb and delay won’t be lockable. These things are important to users, so it will annoy people if your device doesn’t have it. I don’t have any say on what will be accepted and what won’t, but by having a global tab, having a GUI that fits on screens and info for the controls, I’d say you’re increasing your chances.

I’ll try to do the video on GUI stuff soon, but I’m waiting for Vojtech to finish the new beta and of course I need sone time to figure things out for myself. I might actually make it a multi video series because I think some stuff might take a while to explain. Hopefully it will help those struggling with putting the GUI together.

[David]

Whatever you decide to make will be very welcome!

I'm very curious about your use of "lockable" above, rather than simply "accessible", or something like that. I don't quite follow… (Yet another reminder-instance: "Wow, I REALLY don't get the Melda Way just yet." True enough!)

I've also never quite understood the very prevalent (to judge by KVR fora posts, anyway) insistence that every plugin be completely self-sufficient, as in "Where's the delay!?" I always think, "What are all the dedicated delay plugins I own there for?"

And I'm sitting firm, maybe to my detriment, with the idea that Devices SHOULD be unique, not always all the same. For builders of them, it seems to me they should be, ultimately, as quick to think up, stumble upon, and make—and as capable of being fresh, quirky, and unusual—as any patch or preset should or could be. What's the point of providing all the tools and the freedom to make or use them in any conceivable way, if you're going to insist that they always be made with certain features or following some arbitrary format?

And why think of devices as only there for those who can only access MSF through an Easy Screen? MSF is not my first encounter with synths that offer Macros; it's just the first one I've found in which Macros are so powerful and interesting. I'd never buy an MSF player, and now that I'm starting to see what it really offers, I'd never use MSF without wondering what sort of interesting Device I might make with it for my OWN use this time?

This 3-Osc device is a case in point. For me it's not an "easy" way to skip over the complexities that MSF offers for those who don't want to bother or can't justify paying more to be able to. It's a way of synergizing some of those complexities that makes it much more possible to get some very specific things done that couldn't be done at all as well without the Easy DEVICE Screen.

In short, Device-making is, I now finally get—and for me, anyway—THE Power Tool on top of the power-tool kit bag that makes the full version of MSF worth whatever the current effort and whatever the ultimate expense will prove to be.

My opinion, fwiw…

[DarkStar]

I wish more of this made sense to me, such as why UN-checking resizable can make a group smaller; and it can still resize! There's obviously some logic to that, but it's sure not obvious, nor explained anywhere I can find.

Frankly, I wonder exactly how critical all this gui-polishing ultimately is for a sound designer. If it's simply to avoid somebody else—like a gui specialist—having to fix up submitted devices, etc. why not explain it better for non-specialists? I'm actually happy to do it, but what's the point of blind stumbling about…? How did you learn it, DS, for instance?

Some stumbling, but mostly exploration and experimentation.

GUI design is important for sounds designers to consider, especially when we do not have 100% control over the appearance. Some thoughts:
-- the GUI is only there so that the user can get different sounds from your Device/Instrument
-- so you need to provide the most important parameter controls,
-- they need to be in some sensible layout, related controls close to each other etc
-- the GUI needs to look interesting / enticing (there's no need for any comments here about the Styles), with use of colour, different appearances (parameter editor mode, same row? etc)
-- you may find that some Styles work better than others.

Some Resizing Guidelines:
Resizing is only effective when set/unset for the first Multiparameter (MP) in a Group. When unset, the Group width / height depends on the individual MP appearances.

Big pic >>> https://i.imgur.com/JP3xQge.png

In this screenshot
(a) the 2 Groups on the first row do not use resizing; they are the smallest size possible, for the parameters in them and do not change size.
(b) the group on the second row is similar to the first on the first, but Resizing X is set for Depth 1 (the resizing settings for the other two are ignored); the Group expands to fit the available space.
(c) on the third row, the MPs in the first group are rearranged to create a taller group and do not use resizing; and in the second group Resizing Y is set for Depth 1; so its height is increased to that of the first group.
(d) also on the third row, the second group is similar to the first on the first, but the third MP has a longer name, so the minimum width of the group is bigger.
(e) on the fourth row, the MPs in the first group are rearranged to create a taller group and do not use resizing; and in the second group Resizing Y is set for Depth 1; so its height is increased to that of the first one.
(f) also on the fourth row, the third group is similar to the second but Resizing Y is disabled, so the group is the minimum size, aligned centrally.
(g) and the fourth group is similar to the third, but Depth 3 is a bigger knob so the height of the group is bigger, and Resizing X is set for Depth 1 so the group width expands to fill the available space.

Phew!

[David]

Phew, indeed! Thanks DS:)

[Chandlerhimself]

David - by “lockable” I mean the locks that are next to certain controls. Those locks allow you to keep a parameter at a certain value even if you change presets or devices. However this doesn’t work if the MP values aren’t the same. If everyone has different GUIs the locks won’t work. An example of this would be pitch bend range. If I use a regular keyboard I might lock it at 2 semitones and then I could go through all the devices and presets and everything would work with my keyboard. Someone else with an MPE controller might need 48 semitones, so they would lock the pitch bend range at that value. If everyone uses the template this will work. If they don’t the locks won’t work, so that person using an MPE controller will have problems with your preset. The same thing will happen with the other controllers, reverb and delay.

As I said before you don’t have to follow any format or rules if you don’t want to. Just make devices and presets for yourself and enjoy MSF. You can share them with people and make all sort of new and interesting things. You could even sell your devices later if you want.

This thread and the device making is for people who are making factory content for MSF. The recommendations and rules are for technical reasons, so that all the devices work well together. If you don’t follow the rules maybe it will be fine and your device will be accepted, but there is a large chance it won’t. Most people are doing devices to get something in return, such as a free copy of MSF, another plugin, etc, so if your devices aren’t accepted you won’t get that reward. I’m assuming people want their devices included as factory content, but if that’s not the case there are no rules or requirements as far as what you can do.

[David]

wow. thanks…

However this doesn’t work if the MP values aren’t the same.

"values" means slot # in this case, right?

If so, then the slot # of a MP…matters, beyond grouping them together and organizing the GUI. wow again. Did NOT get that.

So, whether you use the template or not, this means you need to reserve some Global MP slots at the same numbers and doing the same things, system wide, AND you shouldn't use ANY of the numbered slots the template uses for different things, right? Otherwise you're messing up…what exactly?

Among the few things I thought I understood in the Device Requirements pdf was this:

"If your instrument follows the recommendations, please enable the "Full GUI" flag in the categorizer system when saving your device. If you want to ignore these recommendations and do "whatever you want", feel free to do that, but do not check the "Full GUI" flag. That categorization will help users
who are looking only for those standard instruments which contain everything they should have."

This implies to me that it's going to be clear to users that some devices WON'T follow the Global template (nor will be MPE-ready). This has never sounded to me like a warning against not checking those flags at this stage, but it sounds like you think it is. OK…

As I've said often before, it's not that I don't want to follow the "requirements and recommendations", or that I insist on doing "whatever I want". Certainly I'm interested in eventually fully understanding this dream-come-true synth. But as a newcomer to the Melda way I (clearly) don't really understand them yet. And I thought I'd found a clear statement in that pdf that it was perfectly OK NOT to follow them, at least in some cases, or as in my own case, at least initially. This still seems wise since trying to follow them would mean letting them interfere with my initial explorations of what was most interesting to me in MSF.

Particularly whenever I have an idea that doesn't seem to fit easily into the template structure, such as I've so far misunderstood it!

But also, as I understand a particular device to function, such as in this most recently shared here one, in which reverb and delay being locked would IMO be an obstacle to hearing what the presets are intended to sound like (in a quite different way than if this was a lead instrument or a bass, etc.), so I'd have wanted to not allow that as an option. But locking the global Gain I would want to enable (so it wouldn’t be randomized as it does now), but that's not included in the Main Template…so I guess it doesn't have a preferred MP slot #…?

[Chandlerhimself]

David - its the slot # and the Value of the MP. If they aren’t exactly the same there will be problems. If you use the same numbered MP and there are locks on the MP things won’t work as expected. I imagine it will alter the parameter values of your presets, but I don’t know for sure.

The gain doesn’t have an MP, but I’m pretty sure it is changed by using the “set” button, so I think its best not to use it as an MP. The volume does have an MP in the template that is locked.

I’d say right now just send your devices to Vojtech and see what he says. Maybe he doesn’t care about the template and what you’re doing is fine. Based on what he’s said before that isn’t the case, but who knows.

The thing with the locks and the fx tab is to make things easier for the user. If someone locks something its for a reason, so IMO there is no reason to take that away from them. When somyfirst opens MSF and they’re going through presets to see how it sounds of course they might want to hear them exactly the way the designer envisioned. Other people want to hear the raw sound, so they remove reverb. If 99% of the patches have no reverb and your preset does it seems like a bug or at least a bad preset.

Another more likely scenario is when someone wants to add a sound to a project they’re working on. They might have a delay already added in their DAW set to the perfect settings for their song. They turn off the delay in MSF and lock it as they browse through presets. As they are browsing they come across your preset that doesn’t have a lock and there are delays all over the place. If they’re patient they might look around and try to find how to turn off the delay, but it might not be that easy if the delay isn’t in the same place as the other presets. Most likely they will just immediately move to another preset. Its not possible to control how the user will hear a sound, so taking away those options will likely just annoy them. But who knows maybe some people will appreciate it.

If you really want to know if what you’re doing is fine or not just submit it.

[David]

Thanks for the clarifications, and I did already submit this last thingy and another one, and just heard back this AM. He didn't scold me or send me packing (whew!), but was apparently confused not to see the Template or recommendations followed:) I tried to explain in reply…will see how that goes!

Re: your explanations here, they do make sense though I can't relate personally to any of those scenarios, but it sounds like you're assuming there will be no categorization for users to allow them to distinguish between Full GUI stuff and not-Full GUI stuff, as implied (or so it seems to me) in the Requirements and recommendations pdf.

FWIW (which no doubt isn't much!), I must say I find it pretty hard to imagine that with all the incredible power and flexibility of MSF to be just about anything, especially things that haven't existed or even been possible before it arrived, that the main design principle for packing it with examples is to defer to the expectations of users who don't want to be surprised, or to see/hear anything new or different or more complicated compared to what they're already used to. I can imagine wanting to offer new products that would help correct any existing prejudice about Melda devices being too complicated! But why try to do that with a Super-Synth Tool Kit that's already way more complicated than almost any other synth I've ever seen?

But I'm certainly planning to figure out working with that Template! Many thanks for all your patient help with that!