Physical Modelling in MSoundFactory

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XComposer wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:17 pm Yes, first thing for me is to read this thread carefully from the beginning and try the settings.
If you have not done so, the first thing should be to view a number of online tutorial videos on Melda essentials like how to use Multiparameters and effect-specific videos on MXXX. There is two or three hours of material available, and some of it merits multiple viewings.


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XComposer wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:45 pm Another question: is it possible to delete a device that has already been saved? How?
Not sure what you mean by delete a device.
Do you mean a preset, or something in the modular?
You can right click on things in the modular to bring up some options.
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.

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A device, that is a complete instrument preset saved with the "Save Device" command and then appearing on the left also in the Easy screen.

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OK, so click on the "Save device" button from the edit screen. Now it will open the window for naming and saving. There you will find a delete button.
Try to keep this thread about Physical Modelling and start a new thread for general questions, but don't let that put you off asking stuff. I want to help.
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.

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I thought I’d do another quick writing since I have some time today. The modal filter is really powerful and by adjusting the levels and detune amounts you can get a lot of different sounds. One thing I’ve learned that might be useful is that open tubes produce all harmonics while closed tubes only produce odd harmonics. To simulate a closed tube turn off all the even harmonics in the modal filter. Another thing I learned recently is that hitting an object always produces the same harmonics, but the area you hit it will determine the volume of the various harmonics. This can also be simulated, but adjusting the volume of the various harmonics in the modal filter depending on the hit. For example you could randomize the harmonics volumes after each hit. Another idea would be to make a “hit placement” and vary the harmonic levels based on it. When used with an MPE controller it would allow you to simulate hitting a drum/metal/xylophone, etc in different places fairly easily.

I’m hoping to implement these ideas in future devices for MSF. I hope you find them interesting and useful too.

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Very interesting Chandler. Is that true for only round tubes? Would a triangular or square tube yield different harmonic signatures?

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To be honest I don't know. The harmonics come from the ends of the tube and the reflections inside the tube. I don't know if the shape makes a difference or not. I want to say no, but it might have some dampening effect. I'm not a physicist, so I'm not qualified to answer. Here is a video that explains why it happens(Don't watch if you hate math and physics).

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/ap- ... bes-part-1

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werzel wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:54 am Very interesting Chandler. Is that true for only round tubes? Would a triangular or square tube yield different harmonic signatures?
It is true for all tube cross-section shapes. The main factor is where nodes, where no movement can happen, can exist. In a closed-end tube , the closed end is a node (fairly obviously if you think about it).

What's interesting (pipe organ buff that I am) is that open-end tubes must be twice as long a closed-end tubes to have the same fundamental. So, using closed end tubes in pipe organs not only offered a new variety of timbres, they also were cheaper to fabricate.

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werzel wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:54 am Very interesting Chandler. Is that true for only round tubes? Would a triangular or square tube yield different harmonic signatures?
I was thinking about this more last night and it occurred to me that organ pipes are just three dimensional enclosures. Rooms have standing waves in multiple directions, so why would an organ pipe with a square cross section behave any differently.

So, in theory at least, the cross section shape could have an influence on the timbre. However, organ pipes are always much longer that they are wide. By the time we get to the non-long-dimension standing waves, if we're down 50 dB or so from the contribution of the long standing waves, you wouldn't hear any difference.

But with organ pipes, the cross section shape probably has way more to do with the choice of materials. Wood pipes have square cross section shapes - wood cylinders would be a bitch to build. Metal pipes are cylindrical - they could be something different but to the best of my knowledge never are.

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I have some time today, so I thought I’d write a little more about my experiments with physical modeling.

One interesting thing you can do with PM and MSF is coupling. By this I mean sending the output of one PM module into another. Doing this allows new sounds and can overcome some of the defeciencies of the various types of PM.

One thing to keep in mind when doing this is, you’ll get the strongest resonance/coupling when the pitches of the various PM modules match. If you have a resonator and then copy it, you’ll get almost perfect resonance. However if you use a 2nd resonator and shift the pitch by 5.5 semitones you won’t hear much because none of the pitches/harmonics will match. Things such as octaves and 5th tend to do well, but sometimes you don’t want things to resonate perfectly, so set the pitch to taste.

Another thing this is useful for is waveguide synthesis. Unfortunately currently in MSF there isn’t a way to generate feedback(in the generator), but there are a few work arounds. For example online I saw a waveguide model of a flute. I tried to copy it by first adding noise in lane 1. Then adding a resonator in lane 1 set to +1 octave. The feedback was set about halfway up. Then in lane 2 I added another resonator with octave 0 and the resonance up fairly high. In the actual waveguide the out put was fed back into the 1st resonator, but this isn’t possible in MSF. Instead I copied the 1st resonator and pasted it into lane 3. This provides a nice flute sound although it’s hard to control. I want to play with this more in to future and try to tune the parameters correctly for better sound and controllability.

My favorite thing however is using coupling a modal filter with a resonator. Modal filters are great a percussive sounds, but have very little sustain. One way to overcome this is adding a resonator after it. Keep in mind this should be done on a separate lane. If you put the resonator directly after the modal filter it will weaken the transient. I put the modal filter in lane 1 and the resonator in lane 2(the resonator takes the input from the modal filter). Then I blend the outputs with a ratio module. This allows some really cool sounds similar to an electric piano. Remember to adjust the feedback of the resonator for more sustain and be very careful with levels. This can easily cause a feedback loop. The benefits are 1). You can sustain the sounds from your modal filter. 2). You can choose which harmonics are emphasized in your resonator. I’m planning on making a device based in this for MSF and I’ll share it later to show some of the things it can do.

Always use the limiter button on the side of MSF with PM because feedback loops pop up all the time. Anyway I hope you found that interesting.

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Cool thanks again Chandler. I will have a play with this.
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.

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I have a little bit of time today, so I’ll write one more.

Often times with string instruments the timbre varies depending on where you pluck/excite the string. Luckily it seems this can be simulated fairly easily. First we need an exciter like a sin sweep or white noise. Personally I prefer a sine sweep for this since it was easier for me to hear the difference. Next add a resonator and set it up so it sounds like a string being played. Now we will need a comb filter. It needs to be after the exciter, but before the resonator, so add a filter right after the exciter. Set the filter to comb(there are a variety, so you can choose which ever you like). I’ve found it best to leave the character where it is at 50%, but you can experiment if you want. The frequency is what will make it sound as if the picking position is moving. I found that somewhere between 0.5 octaves and 4 octaves works best IMHO. Set this to a MP and label it “pick position” or whatever you want.

I beleive something similar can be done with pickup position(for an electric instrument), but it should be keytracked and it comes after the resonator. In this case it could probably be better to use the comb filter in the fx section to save time and CPU. I haven’t experimented with this much, so I have no idea what settings sound best.

Another thing I discovered playing around with this is the ability to simulate harmonics(the playing technique used with string instruments). If you set the picking position to 1 octave and then increase the character to around 80, you’ll hear the octave come out fairly strongly and sound somewhat like what you can do on guitar, bass, etc. one problem is a real harmonic isn’t as bright as this technique, but perhaps a lowpass filter or lowering the filtering inside the resonator will gibe the proper response. I’ll have to experiment more to find the correct settings.

Anyway I hope this has been helpful. I think I’m all out of info and ideas, so I hope someone else has some stuff to share. I’ll try to take some of these ideas and put them in video form soon, so you can hear and see what I’m talking about.

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Cool, thanks! Just a thought, resonator IS a comb filter. So it might be worth experimenting with multiple resonators in series with varying feedback and frequencies?
Melda Production & United Plugins
Surface Studio = i7, 32gb, SSD.
Windows 11. Bitwig, Reaper, Live. MTotal.
Audiofuse, Adam Audio monitors + sub, iLoud MTM.
Polybrute, Summit, Pro 3, Tempest, Syntakt, AH2.
Ableton Push 2, Roli Seaboard Block.

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jmg8 wrote: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:48 pm This is a thread where we can swap tips & tricks and ask questions about physical modelling.
I am really interested in this at the moment, I have a lot to share and a lot to learn.

I will start with something simple.
I was playing around with 6 peak filters in parralell and getting some interesting metalalic sounds.
MP1 randomizes the frequencies of the peak filters and changes the character.
I think it sounds a bit like steel drums.

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Thanks so much for this, and the whole thread, great stuff! Here's one first play-around with it. Would love to know how to put controls on the device page…? There's so many interesting parameters, variations and controllers available.

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