MSoundFactory concept & template round #3

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Hi folks, ok, so here's the situation that crystalized of the last few weeks. Basically a default template is attached below and some basic set of "rules" is specified here. It's work in progress and feel free to comment / contact me directly.
Btw. I'll be calling the "active presets" devices or instruments, some of these shall be the new name ;). Not sure, which yet :).

Before we get to that, many of your responded with fears about "limiting" the designers. So at the end most of the rules are not mandatory, but only recommended. The idea is to make a unified workflow for the end users, which is the most important thing after all. But as a consequence I'd also like to make the life of the designers easier by providing them with a template, that contains almost everything they will need and can just remove the stuff they won't.

Ok, so the concept / rules, the order may look weird but... :)


Every device would contain the Global tab, which would be (nearly) identical except for defaults

The global tab should contain all the options the users would use to make the instrument easy to use with their MIDI controller, plus some general options. They users would simply set the parameters they need to be set somehow (e.g. velocity response is often different, pitch bend range is relevant for MPE...) and lock them. What they don't lock will default to whatever the instrument designer chooses.

There was this idea about having this placed somewhere else, outside of the instruments themselves, but that could be a problem, since some instruments may need different default and they may even need more/less of these parameters.


Every device should be MPE compliant unless it really doesn't make sense :)

MPE is an important part of the market, so we should embrace that ;). Supporting it is actually very simple - providing controls for timbre and pressure (where pressure is relevant for non-MPE MIDI keyboards too). Plus the "Use timbre" and "Use pressure" controls on the global section. This may be a little complication for the preset design, but hopefully not too much and would help the users if their response to these 3D controllers is too "strong". We can provide a set of MIDI files with performances from various MPE controllers, so that every one can test it.

For say drums it wouldn't make much sense, so it's not mandatory, but I'd say it's highly recommended to make everything MPE compliant.


Should we also provide a set of MIDI controllers that need to be used by default???

Not sure about this, because every MIDI keyboard provides different controllers, but we could start of with MPE again by providing some access to the ROLI Seaboard MIDI controllers, I didn't check yet but hopefully they chose wisely :).
In any case mod wheel and expression pedal sound like a good thing to provide every time, don't they?


Generator tab and Effects tab should (not must) be separated, there are no rules about Generator tab

Generator tab is where the users should be controlling the sound properties of each instrument. For some of them the set of controls & effects could be so little, that both generator and effects would be in the same tab.

Should we have some controls that every instrument would have? People were proposing stuff like filters, but I can hardly see a few to make that happen for every instrument. If you imagine a bass drum, EDM bass, piano, some ambient FX... they don't have much in common. So I'm inclined not to have any requirements here. Ideas?


Effects tab in the template contains a full set of effects, that doesn't mean all need to be used

Basically instrument designers would start with the template, do their magic and may or may not keep the effects, add more... There's really no restrictions. I was thinking about predefining the reverb/delay/distortion MP numbers, so that the devices are compatible with each other, but end the end there wouldn't be much use anyways. So I'd say this is all just to make designer's life easier - there's the full set of effects, they can tweak them to make them sound good with the particular sound, remove them, change the order... whatever. Or delete it all :). Personally I think these effects are almost always handy, but still...


Instruments have their own presets

Title of each instrument now contains presets too. So basically you create some more complex instrument and then create presets for it. The problem here is there is no global database now, that would contain all presets of all instruments... that may be needed at the end.
Anyways this thing is more like Kontakt style.


Instruments are categorized on the left side, plus folder structure, plus in the future hashtags

It turns out there's pretty infinite number of genres etc., so creating categories for everything would be pointless, so currently there's quite of exhaustive set, but stuff like EDM is generalized under one tab. Most sounds are useful for many genres anyways. And if one creates something really specific, then they can just mark it say #techno and the search will work with that too (it doesn't now, but...).


So at the end not many rules :)


Now there's an interesting question - global presets on top of the plugin. Technically one can create these too and they may be handy, but they also may be confusing... not sure yet. Any ideas?

Let me know what you think ;).
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Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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Seems much better to me
:dog:

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Things look much better now. The template is fine IMO, the things people don't like they can just change themselves and there is some good stuff there that can save people time.

Every device would contain the Global tab, which would be (nearly) identical except for defaults

Seems fine for the most part. Every once and a while there might be a problem with an organ that has velocity or a crazy 2 octave pitch bend on a bass because someone locked the control, but hopefully people will understand the feature and leave it alone unless they know what they're doing. This rule seems reasonable.

Every device should be MPE compliant

I like this in theory, but I have a feeling there will be problems with this. I know the majority of people don't have MPE controllers, so this might be a lot of extra work for just a few people. Another problem for me personally is, I don't have an MPE controller, so if I add something like timbre, I have no idea how it actually works. I think many other preset designers are in the same boat. On top of that some presets really can't use MPE effectively just because of the nature of the sound. For example I was thinking of making an "808 designer", but I don't know what I could use MPE for with it. Any use of MPE would probably confuse people and make it sound worse.

I think a better idea would be "Try to use MPE as much as you can" or make MPE versions of your devices. There is an MPE tag in the device tree, so presets that use MPE can be found easily. I have one device, that is almost done, based on a minimoog. I think adding MPE to it would make it confusing and it might cause problems. However I'd be happy to make a 2nd version that uses MPE to control the filters, vibrato, etc and perhaps even make it polyphonic. Of course I'd need input from people that actually have MPE controllers. I think this would work better than trying to tack MPE control onto devices that were never intended to have it.

Should we also provide a set of MIDI controllers that need to be used by default???

I say no, but their use should be encouraged. There will always be exceptions, so IMO its best not to make a hard and fast rule with this.

Generator tab and Effects tab should (not must) be separated, there are no rules about Generator tab

Sounds great. Presets with few controls can combine the generator and effects into one tab. I agree that there shouldn't be controls that every instrument has to have.

Effects tab in the template contains a full set of effects, that doesn't mean all need to be used

Sounds great.

Instruments have their own presets

This is really nice. I like the per-device presets. It might require 2 saves to put things into the factory database and the device database. Of course if there is some Melda magic you can do to make it 1 save instead of 2 that would be great, but IMO this isn't really a big deal.

Instruments are categorized on the left side, plus folder structure, plus in the future hashtags

This seems good too. I thought you could already search the info and the name, but as long as that can be implemented in there future this seems great. Hashtags are a good idea as well.


Now there's an interesting question - global presets on top of the plugin. Technically one can create these too and they may be handy, but they also may be confusing... not sure yet. Any ideas?

I think global presets at the top of the plugin should be used for

1). Personal presets - things that I might make for myself that don't need an easy screen.

2). Templates - 3 OSC going into 2 paralell filters, or another configuration that people might commonly use. This will save set up time and allow people to get straight into the fun stuff.

3). Tutorials - Simple example presets that demonstrate simple functions, such as "filter FM", the unison module, etc.

All in all I don't have too many complaints. The only thing that worries me is the MPE stuff. I think having a good amount of MPE presets is enough. I'm not sure if having everything be MPE is necessary or even a good idea.

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About all presets Mpe compatible :

I'm not sure about that too.
The mpe market is growing faster, for sure, and it's the futur but :
Making good Mpe presets is an art and it's not so easy. ( I say that because it's been some time I'm learning it, and it's not an easy task)

Mpe is not limited to pressure to vibrato or cutoff. A lot of things must consider like the action, reaction of the pressure and the cc74 together ...
Expressive instruments need some very accurate settings and if sound designer don't have a mpe controllers and/or don't want to make 5D presets, it's not a good thing to force them to do it.

@Chandler:
In reaper, you can use the midi editor , reaper is mpe compatible but without a controller, it will be hard to enjoy.
Perhaps, a guitar to midi per channels exist, a guitar is fully mpe !
A 808 kick can be nice with mpe too :)
Mpe is just , per voices, velocity, pressure, cc74, bend and note off.

I recommend to every synthetist to invest into an mpe controller, it's a new world full of expressive sensations and Msf is a perfect friend !
( some are not so expensive)
Best
YY

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I tend to agree. I cannot see how a sounds designer without an MPE keyboard could design AND TEST an MPE-instrument.

PS Does an MPE-keyboard have to meet a specific set of MIDI implementation standards or is there flexibility?
DarkStar, ... Interesting, if true
Inspired by ...

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The idea is to make a unified workflow for the end users, which is the most important thing after all.
Then one guideline should be that every Multiparameter should have its own Info explaining what it does, in language that the end-user will understand. (Click the [Edit information about the multiparameter] button in the MP Editor to enter that information.)
DarkStar, ... Interesting, if true
Inspired by ...

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MPE
Are there a basic set of Pressure and Y-Axis control variables that could be added by default?
How time consuming/ technical is editing of MPE control information? (Would something like MPE.js be used or is there something that would allow a "learn" function to be used to set control ranges?)

I think it would be silly not to use MPE wherever possible as it only serves to enhance per-note variability. (No offense Chandler. Just a difference of opinion. I love you, man. :hug: )

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@ DarkStar :
https://www.midi.org/articles-old/midi- ... ession-mpe
A standardization.
And that :
https://www.hakenaudio.com/mpe/

+1 about Mp information.
Best
YY

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werzel wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:13 pm MPE
Are there a basic set of Pressure and Y-Axis control variables that could be added by default?
How time consuming/ technical is editing of MPE control information? (Would something like MPE.js be used or is there something that would allow a "learn" function to be used to set control ranges?)

I think it would be silly not to use MPE wherever possible as it only serves to enhance per-note variability. (No offense Chandler. Just a difference of opinion. I love you, man. :hug: )
Not really, it's like velocity assign to volume : not all patches need that. All patches need to use velocity but not necessary assign to global volume.
Chandler and me never said we don't want Mpe, just, not all patches need to be 5D,mpe.
We have an mpe category, let's use it.
I would enjoy having all presets in 5D, but it's not possible I think.
Best
YY

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I understand how people without an MPE controller would be afraid to add support to it,
but it's really rather simple, in addition to just note-on velocity, simply bind something else to channel pressure (aftertouch), CC74 (brightness), and note-off (release) velocity (different devices can have different capabilities/settings but you can feel safe with these)
Follow these 3 rules:
Keep the effect low (or have a depth slider) - think of it this way: so you'd never change the sound too dramatically by accident on any controller, this is all per-key (and/or make a separate mode to be used for non-recorded per note automation);
Have an option to follow aftertouch instead of velocity;
Don't bind a vibrato to channel pressure (aftertouch), CC74 (brightness).

You could then test it without a controller by manually sending multi-channel midi data.

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Vojtech,

Can you please post a preset in copy-and-paste form at your earliest convenience? I will send this request via email as well because you will probably read that sooner.

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dmbaer wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:51 pm Vojtech,

Can you please post a preset in copy-and-paste form at your earliest convenience? I will send this request via email as well because you will probably read that sooner.
Never mind! I now see it was an attachment to the email announcing the latest beta. :dog:

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Chandlerhimself wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:44 pm I like this in theory, but I have a feeling there will be problems with this. I know the majority of people don't have MPE controllers, so this might be a lot of extra work for just a few people. Another problem for me personally is, I don't have an MPE controller, so if I add something like timbre, I have no idea how it actually works. I think many other preset designers are in the same boat.
I do not yet have an MPE controller either. However, I do have an iPad and I just discovered that there are at least two extremely inexpensive MPE keyboard apps available. I don't know the situation for Android, however.

Just do a google on "mpe keyboard app" to track them down.

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Hey folks, ok, so I see the MPE support is basically the only concern here. And I agree, mandatory is probably too much, I'll check it in the original post.

As for implementation: I think it is actually quite easy, you only need to map timbre and pressure to some meaningful stuff. As for testing - we can simply provide a set of MIDI files, that would contain some recorded performances using MPE controllers, I have 2 of them here, so shouldn't be a big problem. Of course playing it directly is something different, but still... most good designers have at least a keyboard with pressure and pitchbend, so that only leaves timbre unavailable, where the MIDI files should do the trick.
Vojtech
MeldaProduction MSoundFactory MDrummer MCompleteBundle The best plugins in the world :D

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werzel - no problem. To be clear I’m not saying there shouldn’t be MPE presets. I think there should be lots of MPE presets, I just don’t think everything should be an MPE preset.

dmbaer, Whywhy, pone - Thanks for the info. Dmbaer, I can’t find the MPE apps. Are they only for iPad? I have an iPhone, but not an iPad.

I think having presets and devices that are focused on MPE and are made with MPE in mind from the start will produce better results than having to throw MPE controllers on all presets, even where is doesn’t make sense. I think it would be cool to have a wavetable that could be scanned by pressure or timbre, but I ‘d rather have that be a separate device than have that function shoved in a normal device. 100 or 200 good MPE presets that can be easily found are better than 1000 MPE presets where 80% are bad.

That said, if there are midi files perhaps people without controllers will be able to see how things should sound.

EDIT - I think Vojtech did a ninja edit on me and changed the original post to say
“Every device should be MPE compliant unless it really doesn't make sense”. That seems reasonable, although I’d rather it be “Try to use MPE as much as you can”, but that’s just splitting hairs.

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