Connecting multiple MIDI keyboards?

[amorrison2]

Hi -- I'm new to Cantabile and hoping someone can give me some guidance on using multiple MIDI keyboards with the program. So far, I have successfully used the program with a single MIDI keyboard controller (a Yamaha P80 stage piano). I'd like to add an additional 61-key MIDI controller keyboard for added flexibility and control sliders.

My question is whether it's possible to configure two MIDI keyboard controllers to work together with a laptop running Cantabile (connected via an E-Mu 0404 audio/midi interface). I'd like to know if it's possible to create a MIDI chain with the two keyboards (perhaps with each operating on a separate MIDI channel) and connect them to the MIDI In on the E-Mu 0404, which is connected via USB to my laptop running Cantabile Solo. If this is feasible, how do I chain the controllers, and how do I get Cantabile to recognize them as separate controllers?

Thanks for any assistance/advice you can provide.

Allen

[TiUser]

Connecting multiple midi devices is no basic problem as long as Windows identifies all your keyboards and controllers proper. Cantabile uses the Windows midi ports so trouble is usually not a Cantabile problem but Windows related or a driver issue.

As far as Cantabile is involved you can assign the keyboard port (some keyboards have more than one port) and midi channel for each individual rack.

You can not simply chain midi outputs together (like you can with inputs via midi through for sound modules) without a special device (or feature in your keyboard) called "midi merger". Usually an external device is expensive and not worth getting. Better you have keyboards with straight USB ports or alternatively another PC interface with more than one midi input.

Hope this helps. If not feel free to ask more... I think you should understand your options before purchasing anything.

[dluther]

My question is whether it's possible to configure two MIDI keyboard controllers to work together with a laptop running Cantabile (connected via an E-Mu 0404 audio/midi interface). I'd like to know if it's possible to create a MIDI chain with the two keyboards (perhaps with each operating on a separate MIDI channel) and connect them to the MIDI In on the E-Mu 0404, which is connected via USB to my laptop running Cantabile Solo. If this is feasible, how do I chain the controllers, and how do I get Cantabile to recognize them as separate controllers?
Allen

So, here's what you're asking -- is it possible to daisy chain multiple MIDI devices?

Yes. However, every time you do this you add a bit of latency to your setup, and this can really start to kill your performance. And if you use the MIDI THRU of one keyboard to eliminate the latency loop, you're going to lose the ability of using one keyboard as a controller.

Best advice is to get the MIDI breakout cable that allows another MIDI port for your computer, or get a multi-port midi interface which will allow one port per device.

[TiUser]

Hi.

I think this is confusing.

You basically can't daisy chain keyboard controller midi outputs - except there is a dedicated midi merge processing. As usual exceptions prove the rule as for instance an Edidol PCR has such a merge option from it's external midi in to the usb midi data stream... but that's more likely a rare feature and not a standard.

You can daisy chain midi in via midi through, but that makes only sense for keyboards with internal sound generator. With this you basically connect all these sound modules logically in parallel, making them "listen" to the same one single midi data stream.

It's not quite true that midi through introduces something like digital latency. It's when you chain too often each stage degrades the signal slopes and if edges are not well defined enough the total midi transmission get's unstable.

What's true is that transmitting a complete midi command consisting of 3 bytes takes approximately 1ms to be transferred via a classical midi cable. If you have a midi line heavily loaded you can indeed get timing issues... but that can also happen without midi through and daisy chaining...

Maybe I misunderstood, but the OP question was about adding a second midi controller keyboard, wasn't it? This means a second midi output. The Emu interface card has just one input - hence the question for daisy chaining I guess... but multiple midi outs can not be daisy chained to a single midi input without a midi merge processor device.

[dluther]

You basically can't daisy chain keyboard controller midi outputs - except there is a dedicated midi merge processing.

Well...

I actually have kind of a purposeful setup where I'm using the MIDI output of my Behringer BCF2K connected to the input port of my Roland A70 -- then the four out ports to individual ins on my 8-port interface. That's *kind* of daisy chaining outputs, but this is a very specific instance which essentially gives me 4 BCF2K's because the MIDI messages come into the computer on different ports.

And you can go Computer MIDI out -> Keyboard A MIDI in, Keyboard A MIDI out -> Keyboard B MIDI in, Keyboard B MIDI out -> Computer MIDI IN to have a daisy chained function because the MIDI spec insists on retransmitting all input to the output except for SysEx messages. But, each connection results in about a 1ms delay; not problematic with a first or second generation retransmit, but can be noticeable afterwards with particularly percussive chordings. The MAIN problem with this setup is making sure that Keyboard B doesn't errantly respond to MIDI messages from Keyboard A. You could work around this by using Keyboard A's MIDI thru to Keyboard B's MIDI in, (and Keyboard A's out goes to Computer MIDI IN) but you lose the ability of Keyboard B to control anything. The MIDI thru function is almost universally implemented as a hardware function of the standard hex optoisolator circuit, which for all intents and purposes is as close to a "hard-wired" copy of the input as can be achieved with an optical coupling device.

The best solution is to have a multi-port MIDI interface.

[TiUser]

That's not daisy chaining midi outputs in a classical sense. I mean with "classical" the 3 midi sockets "in", "out" and "through" HW aspect operating @ 31.5 kBit/s.

Midi IN is usually not transferred to midi OUT except your keyboard has special options for that - which finally implements a merger and may be the cause for your delays. Basically IN is taken over to midi THROUGH - nothing else - if there is a through jack at all. Your "chain" looks quite cumbersome to me...

"midi" is used for so many things that it is sometimes hard to understand what we are talking about... the classical HW, a USB connect, the protocol itself, a file containing "midi" data,...

What's true is your Edirol provides another midi in port and serves probably as a second midi -> usb interface. This alone is still not merging midi data... ok, it may look like daisy chaining from wiring standpoint but from midi data flow standpoint it still isn't...

I am not sure about additional features of your controller keyboard but I also said some have advanced features which do the merge trick. I've never heard of a midi standard taking midi IN over to midi OUT. Your observation that sysex is not taken over in your case is a hint to me that this is a merger limitation. Indeed sysex over classical midi may interrupt data flow and lead to unwanted dropouts. A real daisy chain would not drop sysex and if you use THROUGH that will indeed not happen.

It's not wrong what you finally say about your setup, I just find it confusing. Referring to the OP question I think what he needs is basic understanding. Me and him don't know about your specific setup unless you tell us about it... so well, I think you got me already...

"The MIDI thru function is almost universally implemented as a hardware function of the standard hex optoisolator circuit, which for all intents and purposes is as close to a "hard-wired" copy of the input as can be achieved with an optical coupling device. "

That's just going to the through jack and it's 1:1 command wise. There may be some physical signal degradation but there is nothing like excluding sysex here. There is nothing in the basic midi IF HW going from in to out.

The best solution is to have a multi-port MIDI interface.

If you know - why not doing so? It would resolve all your issues - if you had ever any in your setup as you seem to know what you are doing.

Referring to the OP question a second keyboard with usb connect might be the "better" or "simpler" solution and not daisy chaining anything via midi.

[Cherios]

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You basically can't daisy chain keyboard controller midi outputs - except there is a dedicated midi merge processing.

Well...

I actually have kind of a purposeful setup where I'm using the MIDI output of my Behringer BCF2K connected to the input port of my Roland A70 -- then the four out ports to individual ins on my 8-port interface. That's *kind* of daisy chaining outputs, but this is a very specific instance which essentially gives me 4 BCF2K's because the MIDI messages come into the computer on different ports.

And you can go Computer MIDI out -> Keyboard A MIDI in, Keyboard A MIDI out -> Keyboard B MIDI in, Keyboard B MIDI out -> Computer MIDI IN to have a daisy chained function because the MIDI spec insists on retransmitting all input to the output except for SysEx messages. But, each connection results in about a 1ms delay; not problematic with a first or second generation retransmit, but can be noticeable afterwards with particularly percussive chordings. The MAIN problem with this setup is making sure that Keyboard B doesn't errantly respond to MIDI messages from Keyboard A. You could work around this by using Keyboard A's MIDI thru to Keyboard B's MIDI in, (and Keyboard A's out goes to Computer MIDI IN) but you lose the ability of Keyboard B to control anything. The MIDI thru function is almost universally implemented as a hardware function of the standard hex optoisolator circuit, which for all intents and purposes is as close to a "hard-wired" copy of the input as can be achieved with an optical coupling device.

The best solution is to have a multi-port MIDI interface.

I must Agree on that one! To use different midi channels you must have different midi channels. By daisychaining midi devices simply allows you to send the same type notes!

Want to look at some midi functions check this out: http://www.eumes.cat/en/blog/which-midi ... fographic/ (http://www.eumes.cat/en/blog/which-midi-keyboard-is-my-best-option-infographic/)

[noobAudioJunky]

I'm just getting into this particular "challenge", I have an evo mk461 and a numark dj2go (usb). The evo states it has no midi in, and I'm guessing the same is true for dj2go, about to try some fx routing with some js midimonitor plugins to see what info comes in on what channel, ie how to emulate midi out/thru in a DAW environment (using usbMIDI devices that don't have MIDI THRU). I'm imagining MIDI filtering and routing, with plugins (http://stash.reaper.fm/5171/MB_Filter2_1.0.zip, midi_matrix....) that have different presets that are the layouts for which message go to which devices.

First I think I need a VMP manager, like loopmidi. weighing up the options. I reckon argle could do this in under an hour from scratch

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