ThanksDoes MM solve the Cakewalk number of VSTs limitation and how?
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OffworldExpress OffworldExpress https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=278813
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 12 posts since 17 Apr, 2012 from Pgh, PA
I've encountered the issue, but I'm not understanding Cakewalk's approach to solving it via VST groups etc. Their tool frankly sucks so I'm hoping MM is a solution. How does it address the issue? Maybe someone can explain it to me in i-dont-have-to-think-too-hard-about it terms please? Thanks
Thanks-
- KVRian
- 736 posts since 5 Jul, 2005 from Southern California
July 20, 2012
There has been an update to this thread that contains more accurate and thorough information than was in this particular post.
I've deleted the content of this post and deleted a couple of posts in this thread because they just clouded the issues.
Just scroll down to the new post on this.
Update in Max# of Plug-ins usable in Sonar
...Steven
There has been an update to this thread that contains more accurate and thorough information than was in this particular post.
I've deleted the content of this post and deleted a couple of posts in this thread because they just clouded the issues.
Just scroll down to the new post on this.
Update in Max# of Plug-ins usable in Sonar
...Steven
Last edited by TheSteven on Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:57 am, edited 7 times in total.
Cakewalk/Sonar Plugin Management Tools-
OffworldExpress OffworldExpress https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=278813
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 12 posts since 17 Apr, 2012 from Pgh, PA
Thank you. I'm using X1 Essentials
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- KVRian
- 736 posts since 5 Jul, 2005 from Southern California
As I mentioned with X1 I don't know if the Menu Solution or Supplemental Solution (creating separate menus each containing a portion of your plug-in library) will actually fix your problem.OffworldExpress wrote:Thank you. I'm using X1 Essentials
If you buy MenuMagic and it doesn't help and you want to 'return it' - I will refund your money, as long as it is with 15 days of your purchase.
...Steven
Cakewalk/Sonar Plugin Management Tools-
- KVRian
- 736 posts since 5 Jul, 2005 from Southern California
Update on the issue of the limitations on the number of plug-ins in Sonar.
Thanks to those of you who volunteered and helped verify the details of issue in regards to Sonar X1.
The following is based on information that I received from the testers and from my years of experience in working with data and programming. At no time did I run the program through a debugger, dissembler, etc. If you're a Chevy mechanic you can still tell what's going on under the hood of a Ford without having to disassemble it.
********************************
********************************
Quote from Cakewalk:
*****************
Here are some details explaining why the default menu has a plugin limit. If you are using SONAR 8.3.1 you should have even received a warning as listed below. Did you not see that?
Too many plug-ins notification
SONAR has limits to the number of plugin's that can fit in menus. When the number of plugin's exceeds the limit we now display an error message:
"More plug-in's are available on your system than can fit on this menu. The extra plug-ins will not be listed until this is resolved. Please use the Plug-in Manager to create custom menu layouts in order to categorize and store smaller sets of these plug-ins. Alternatively you can reduce the number of plug-in's installed on your system."
This normally happens when you have too many plugins installed on your system than can fit the menu. You need to move some plugins out of your default VST folder or alternatively use plugin layouts. Layouts were designed to overcome this problem.
The current limits for how many plug-ins can fit in the menu are:
735 audio plug-ins
255 synths
31 rewire devices
Though these numbers might look arbitrary, they are the ranges assigned to menu identifiers.
********************************
********************************
Testing appears to show that this issue hasn't changed since that particular quote was posted on a thread in the Sonar forum back when Sonar 8.3 was new and sparkly.
Unfortunately this information is as wrong now as it was then.
Regarding:
The current limits for how many plug-ins can fit in the menu are:
735 audio plug-ins
255 synths
31 rewire devices
The numbers in the quote above are not limitations of the 'menus' but are limitations of what Sonar can hold in memory. I.E. they are the size of the data structure that Sonar has defined and created in memory to hold plug-in data.
When Sonar loads - it reads the physical plug-in database
* If there is room in the data structure for a plug-in of that type it adds the plug-in info into the data structure.
* Otherwise it skips entering that plug-in into the data structure - i.e. no data is entered.
So for example if the 256th synth read from the database is "Joe's V.A. V.A. Voom" that plug-in's information is not added to the data structure.
So what does this mean?
*******************
Sonar is using the data structure as the source of 'all' plug-in information when it runs.
Any plug-in layout menu, be it the "Default All Plug-ins" or a custom menu layout, can only list items if they exist in the data structure. If you are using a custom menu layout any plug-in that is not in the data structure will still be listed in the menu - but the menu item will be a dead link (i.e. do nothing if selected because there is no data associated with that menu item).
I would also suspect that if you happened to have a track that used one of these missing plug-ins that the track would now be broken because of the dead plug-in reference.
* Didn't verify this but since Sonar's only knowledge of a plug-in is via its data structure it seems the only logical conclusion.
Conclusions/Opinions/Concerns
************************
1) There is no reason, especially on a 64 bit system, why the data structure should have this kind of limit. It should be a dynamically allocated structure that is as small or as large as needed.
The current fixed structure design is not adequate by current programming standards and is recipe for trouble.
There is no reason why the plug-in data structure should have a limit especially on a 64 bits system where you can have memory galore.
If there is a menu item limit issue within Sonar then Sonar should deal with that in the appropriate manner when it loads a particular plug-in menu.
2) The current system defeats ANY kind of work around.
The suggestion "Please use the Plug-in Manager to create custom menu layouts in order to categorize and store smaller sets of these plug-ins" is useless.
The only current solution is to not exceed the limit by what DX plug-ins you have installed and what VST plug-ins you place in your scan paths.
3) The 'too many plug-ins notification' warning apparently only comes up if you select "Default All Plug-ins" from the menu list, not if you are using a custom menu. If you're are going to have a warning it should come up when Sonar load its plug-in data structure in memory and exceeds its limits.
4) Potential to mess up current and/or past projects.
This is my concern...
Let's says you have a number of various projects using various plug-ins.
At some point you cross the threshold on one of the maximums and aren't aware that you have items missing in your menus because you aren't using those particular plug-ins at the moment in your new projects.
Now for whatever reason you go back to your older projects - to finally finish that CD, or someone wants to use your music in a film or commercial but wants a remixes, etc.
If your old project uses any of the plug-ins that fell off the map when you exceeded the threshold, those plug-in are now missing and you project is broken.
If you delete the newer plug-ins that you installed to try to fix old projects you may end up breaking your new projects.
Now while this might be a pain for me who is using Sonar for my own projects it probably isn't a life and death scenario BUT if I was a studio owner using Sonar who had a large plug-in inventory to attract clients & keep 'em happy - this would keep me up at night. I'd be wondering when it was going to blow up in my face and if I could fix it without messing up another client's project down the road.
Thanks to those of you who volunteered and helped verify the details of issue in regards to Sonar X1.
The following is based on information that I received from the testers and from my years of experience in working with data and programming. At no time did I run the program through a debugger, dissembler, etc. If you're a Chevy mechanic you can still tell what's going on under the hood of a Ford without having to disassemble it.
********************************
********************************
Quote from Cakewalk:
*****************
Here are some details explaining why the default menu has a plugin limit. If you are using SONAR 8.3.1 you should have even received a warning as listed below. Did you not see that?
Too many plug-ins notification
SONAR has limits to the number of plugin's that can fit in menus. When the number of plugin's exceeds the limit we now display an error message:
"More plug-in's are available on your system than can fit on this menu. The extra plug-ins will not be listed until this is resolved. Please use the Plug-in Manager to create custom menu layouts in order to categorize and store smaller sets of these plug-ins. Alternatively you can reduce the number of plug-in's installed on your system."
This normally happens when you have too many plugins installed on your system than can fit the menu. You need to move some plugins out of your default VST folder or alternatively use plugin layouts. Layouts were designed to overcome this problem.
The current limits for how many plug-ins can fit in the menu are:
735 audio plug-ins
255 synths
31 rewire devices
Though these numbers might look arbitrary, they are the ranges assigned to menu identifiers.
********************************
********************************
Testing appears to show that this issue hasn't changed since that particular quote was posted on a thread in the Sonar forum back when Sonar 8.3 was new and sparkly.
Unfortunately this information is as wrong now as it was then.
Regarding:
The current limits for how many plug-ins can fit in the menu are:
735 audio plug-ins
255 synths
31 rewire devices
The numbers in the quote above are not limitations of the 'menus' but are limitations of what Sonar can hold in memory. I.E. they are the size of the data structure that Sonar has defined and created in memory to hold plug-in data.
When Sonar loads - it reads the physical plug-in database
* If there is room in the data structure for a plug-in of that type it adds the plug-in info into the data structure.
* Otherwise it skips entering that plug-in into the data structure - i.e. no data is entered.
So for example if the 256th synth read from the database is "Joe's V.A. V.A. Voom" that plug-in's information is not added to the data structure.
So what does this mean?
*******************
Sonar is using the data structure as the source of 'all' plug-in information when it runs.
Any plug-in layout menu, be it the "Default All Plug-ins" or a custom menu layout, can only list items if they exist in the data structure. If you are using a custom menu layout any plug-in that is not in the data structure will still be listed in the menu - but the menu item will be a dead link (i.e. do nothing if selected because there is no data associated with that menu item).
I would also suspect that if you happened to have a track that used one of these missing plug-ins that the track would now be broken because of the dead plug-in reference.
* Didn't verify this but since Sonar's only knowledge of a plug-in is via its data structure it seems the only logical conclusion.
Conclusions/Opinions/Concerns
************************
1) There is no reason, especially on a 64 bit system, why the data structure should have this kind of limit. It should be a dynamically allocated structure that is as small or as large as needed.
The current fixed structure design is not adequate by current programming standards and is recipe for trouble.
There is no reason why the plug-in data structure should have a limit especially on a 64 bits system where you can have memory galore.
If there is a menu item limit issue within Sonar then Sonar should deal with that in the appropriate manner when it loads a particular plug-in menu.
2) The current system defeats ANY kind of work around.
The suggestion "Please use the Plug-in Manager to create custom menu layouts in order to categorize and store smaller sets of these plug-ins" is useless.
The only current solution is to not exceed the limit by what DX plug-ins you have installed and what VST plug-ins you place in your scan paths.
3) The 'too many plug-ins notification' warning apparently only comes up if you select "Default All Plug-ins" from the menu list, not if you are using a custom menu. If you're are going to have a warning it should come up when Sonar load its plug-in data structure in memory and exceeds its limits.
4) Potential to mess up current and/or past projects.
This is my concern...
Let's says you have a number of various projects using various plug-ins.
At some point you cross the threshold on one of the maximums and aren't aware that you have items missing in your menus because you aren't using those particular plug-ins at the moment in your new projects.
Now for whatever reason you go back to your older projects - to finally finish that CD, or someone wants to use your music in a film or commercial but wants a remixes, etc.
If your old project uses any of the plug-ins that fell off the map when you exceeded the threshold, those plug-in are now missing and you project is broken.
If you delete the newer plug-ins that you installed to try to fix old projects you may end up breaking your new projects.
Now while this might be a pain for me who is using Sonar for my own projects it probably isn't a life and death scenario BUT if I was a studio owner using Sonar who had a large plug-in inventory to attract clients & keep 'em happy - this would keep me up at night. I'd be wondering when it was going to blow up in my face and if I could fix it without messing up another client's project down the road.
Cakewalk/Sonar Plugin Management Tools-
- KVRian
- 736 posts since 5 Jul, 2005 from Southern California
MenuMagic v2 beta (build1.8.2.30)
The PIL (Plug-In Limit) Manager makes its debut and gives you a tool to manage Sonar's maximum plug-in limitations.
Additional PIL Manager features/enhancements are planned for upcoming MenuMagic releases.
MenuMagic is an enhanced plug-in manager for Cakewalk's Sonar Digital Audio Workstations. A set of power tools that takes the concept of plug-in management to whole new levels.
MenuMagic Features
MenuMagic V2 early adopter sale
Current pre-release sale price $21.99 -- regular price $69.99
The PIL (Plug-In Limit) Manager makes its debut and gives you a tool to manage Sonar's maximum plug-in limitations.
Additional PIL Manager features/enhancements are planned for upcoming MenuMagic releases.
MenuMagic is an enhanced plug-in manager for Cakewalk's Sonar Digital Audio Workstations. A set of power tools that takes the concept of plug-in management to whole new levels.
MenuMagic Features
MenuMagic V2 early adopter sale
Current pre-release sale price $21.99 -- regular price $69.99
Cakewalk/Sonar Plugin Management Tools
