IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
AdvancedFollower
KVRian
545 posts since 8 May, 2018 from Sweden

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:33 am

BONES wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:25 pm
If you listen just after 40 seconds, you can hear how Dog-awful ladder filters sound. As the resonance increases, it creates a second, detached timbre above the main sound, instead of an integrated timbre with more harmonics. I assume thats because the bandwidth of the resonance is too narrow, possibly to combat the effect it has on the bottom end. Whatever the reason, it's a shithouse sound compared to what other types of filters can do.
Lots of ladder filters do that when you turn up the resonance, along with the bass dropping out from the sound. It happens on my SE-02, and it also happened on the MFB Synth II I used to have. You can combat it somewhat by increasing the drive/feedback as you turn up the resonance, but it's pretty typical behavior in these types of filters. Also, with a single oscillator there's less (and more static) harmonic content to emphasize at the cutoff point vs 2-3 detuned oscillators that can cause the resonance to warble and move.

Synths like the Monologue and UNO synth have 12 dB filters with a smoother response that leave more of the high-frequency signal, and distort and scream when you turn up the resonance (the internal gain staging probably also has something to do with that).

Wouldn't say one is better/worse than the other, just different styles of filter. Both have their uses and it's nice that not all synths sound identical.

yellowmix
KVRian
1392 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:20 am

Clutter.
Last edited by yellowmix on Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9058 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Fri Oct 18, 2019 4:20 pm

AdvancedFollower wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:33 am
Lots of ladder filters do that when you turn up the resonance, along with the bass dropping out from the sound.
Yes, which is why I dislike them so much and wouldn't buy any synth that had one (and no other alternatives).
yellowmix wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:20 am
You're looking at modular from a fixed architecture viewpoint and that's the first mistake most people make, myself included.
I am looking at the features it has, all of which are inadequate, from the oscillators to the filter, envelope and LFO. If it had even one thing to recommend it, I could see the merit in your attitude but when you need to replace every single part of it, it has no value beyond being a patchbay or a simple sequencer, either of which you could buy for much less.
You can't put the Uno filter in your other synth.
Why would I want to? I have half-a-dozen synths I can feed an external signal into but to me it seems like the stupidest idea ever, especially given how good Uno's oscillators sound. I can see why it is valuable for Crave, because none of the standard features are very good, but if you buy the right synth, you won't need to do any of that. That's my point - Crave simply cannot stand on it's own two feet as a synth because both the sum of it's parts and those individual parts are below par. Behringer make a big fuss about using the 3340 chip, which shows they they think it will sell to people who care more about those irrelevant details than they do about how it sounds. Seems they are right on that score, too.
With modular you can mix and match. And it's not just about swapping modules, it's the cables between them, the holistic interaction where the modular system becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
You mean like a proper synth. Because that's all you end up with, a synth. Nothing more, nothing greater. It's just that you have to jump through many more hoops to get there. Just like SynthEdit, except that at least with SynthEdit you end up with a normal VSTi that you can store patches in and use for years and years after you put in all that extra work.
It's really odd to call me a "hoarder" of modules when you're talking about getting a synth for every possible combination of modules.
That's more arse-backwards thinking from you. I don't buy synths "for every possible combination of modules", I buy a range of synths to cover a broad range of possible timbres as easily as possible. Sound is always the no. 1 priority, with workflow close behind. If, for example, I end up buying an Argon8, I will sell the Craft Synth 2.0 because they do the same stuff. I do that all the time. I've sold half-a-dozen synths in the last year or two and bought four new ones. It's a constant search for the right gear, not just for more gear.

OTOH, the way you talk about it makes it seem like the main point is getting more modules to make your work ever more complex. Hence "hoarder". Seriously, if I was into modular, I'd be even more critical of Crave because I'd want modules/synths with more to contribute than a single oscillator with just two waveforms, an ADS envelope and a very poor LFO. I'd want something that could contribute to my set-up, not need to be propped up by it.
I'm going by what you said about it, I trust your assessment, because it was right about the Uno:
Because the app makes it "easier" implies that it was already easy, which is the case. And of course it will always be easier to work in a software interface than a hardware interface, simply because there are way fewer restrictions. Anyone who doesn't see that is an idiot.

BTW, your statement directly contradicts your previous assertion that in all the videos you watched Craft was being used with a tablet, which is why you weren't interested in it.
If you thought Skulpt's front panel was hard to work with, Craft 2's is even worse. They've gone away from the angled text but there isn't anywhere near enough contrast between the text and the panel for it to be readable unless you have the light coming in at just the right angle. Right now the unit is half-a-metre away from my eyes and I can't read a single label. OTOH, I can read every word printed on Skulpt's front panel and it is further away.
Wow, that is strange because it's actually the other way around. Skulpt is the one that's hard to read, Craft is way, way less hassle. Skulpt is grey on grey Where Craft is white on grey or white on black. I must have written that the day I got it because after a few months Craft is way, way easier to read, day or night.
This is a deal-breaker. I've got Serum, Hive, Avenger, so many powerful wavetable-capable softsynths to satisfy me, and I don't want it portable/DAWless if it's not 99% close to perfect for me. It's got nothing to do with you.
Here again is that wrong-headed thinking of yours. I don't only compare a wavetable synth to other wavetable synths, I compare the output sound of every synth with every other synth. I certainly don't sit in front of Hive or DUNE and think "OK, I'm going to need a wavetable oscillator to make this sound". That kind of thinking is far too restrictive.
I like making my own stuff: cables, wavetables, modular racks, bread, art & design. I find joy in creating these aspects of things where other people want premade stuff, which is fine.
As do I but, at the end of the day, I also like to finish albums and get them out into the wild, which means I need to make choices about which parts of the process are important and which are not. At the end of the day, that means only doing the things I have to. e.g. I still mostly make my own keyboard stands, or put a effort into enhancing the things I buy because i need to but if someone came along with the perfect solution, I'd happily go with that.
[/quote]I like Modal's choices from what I can see, but I know I'd be unhappy not being able to add my own.[/quote]
But you accept those kinds of choices all the time because it is really only wavetable synths that let you load your own oscillators/waveforms.
And I was more like suggesting things to IK, like they're gonna wade through all this. But consider yourself lucky, I'm still looking for my unicorn.
Whereas I am always happy to take the tools at hand and make something from them. I dot really see it as my job to tell people how to make their products (which is why I am a terrible beta tester).
I have more requirements, I want to do FM, fractal, all sorts of weird maths, etc...
Why? I want to write and produce songs. I don't care about fractals or all sorts of weird maths, I just want usable timbres for all the parts of each of my songs. If I can find a preset to do that, I'll use it but if I can't, then I'll make one but I won't care what process is involved in getting the right sound, only that it is the right sound when I'm done. Surely we are all here to make music? Again, though, you sound like a collector/hoarder.
Okay, you don't like 303s, you don't like ladder filters, you don't consider analog or wavetables to be a feature, that's fine. Is it hard to believe people have other preferences?
It is very difficult to believe theirs are valid.
when you say people should buy the Uno instead and there's no reason to get the Crave, that's unnecessarily confrontational.
I didn't tell anyone anything I simply asked why anyone would choose Crave over Uno and made a list of completely valid reasons why you might choose Uno instead. A rational response would have been to come up with a list of reasons to choose Crave but instead there was nothing but a torrent of abuse and people telling me to go away. As though they weren't even interested in a discussion.
If someone came here to advocate against the Uno, saying anyone that was considering it is irrational, personally I would ignore it.
Why? What if they had perfectly valid reasoning that pointed you in a different direction, to something even better? I'd engage with them to learn as much as I could because there is always plenty to be learned.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Straylight, Quanta, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

yellowmix
KVRian
1392 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:17 am

Clutter.
Last edited by yellowmix on Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9058 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:55 pm

yellowmix wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:17 am
You're routing audio through a patchbay,
You know those two rows of jacks across the top of Crave? That's a patchbay. Yes, there are audio patchbays but you can use a patchbay to route any kind of signal you want.
If your goal is a conventional synth, yeah.
Yet again you are putting the cart before the horse. My goal is to make music, isn't yours? Isn't everyone's? This is why you sound like a hoarder - you don't seem to care about what you have a synth for, only in what kind of synth it is that you have.
Like I said in my response to the initial question, it's designed and marketed primarily as an entry point and a great self-contained start. If you're already into modular you're going to evaluate what modules it adds to your toolkit and it's got a pretty good case.
No, it has no case at all. It has a single oscillator with just two waveform options, a deeply flawed filter and highly compromised envelope and LFO.
We aren't evaluating synths in a vacuum
You seem to by only comparing a wavetable synth to other wavetable synths. If I thought that way I would never have bought any wavetable synths after I got my Ultranova 8 years ago, long before they suddenly became trendy again. Even in software, Orion had a very good 3 osc wavetable synth built in from it's earliest versions, almost 20 years ago, so I'd never have bothered with another wavetable softsynth.
I don't know why you assume other people think irrationally because they make different choices than you.
Maybe if people were able to explain their choices but when they can't and they end up with a different one to me, what other conclusion makes sense?
CraftSynth's resultant sound (which is a consequence of its synthesis method) is redundant to me given my extant synths; I am looking for portability and ease of use and ability to put my wavetables on it to overcome that.
This might give us a bit of insight - you completely discount the role of the filter, the envelopes, the LFOs and the rest of the signal path, making a determination based solely on the synthesis method used by the oscillators. Do you not see any problem there?
You're selling synths to make space, I'm not getting into that position in the first place.
Unless you live on a 31 foot boat, I daresay you won't ever have to.
There is a notable dearth of user-supplied experiences of designing patches sans tablet—the videos show playing extant patches. And the videos that do show direct programming makes it look like a nightmare.
That's because, as is the case 99% of the time, all the videos were made within a few hours of the reviewer getting their hands on the synth. It's what tends to make those videos a waste of time. All those people want to do is get their video posted first so they can rack up more views, rather than spending enough time to get to know the instrument before posting a useful, thoughtful review. That's why Nick Batt's reviews are so much better than most others - he clearly spends some quality time with an instrument before he records a review. He always has patches he's created and saved himself and generally a depth of knowledge about the instrument you don't get in other reviews. That's why he got the guy from Modal to demo Craft Synth 2.0, because he hadn't had time to do his own evaluation. OTOH, I was watching a Craft v Rocket video the other day by some idiot who was demoing the Craft's filter with both oscillators outputting a sine wave. What an absolute dunce!
They all make the same points about the app changing the abilities and workflow so much/needing a screen.
No, they don't. Mostly they use the app to give you, the viewer, a better idea of what's going on, rather than trying to see past the reviewers fat fingers.
CraftSynth has a mod matrix, it's utterly insane when a simpler Uno has a character display, and the MicroMonsta shows it doesn't have to be fancy, just functional.
Micromonsta is more expensive, yet it looks and feels cheap compared to Craft. Micromonsta feels like all the components were bought from Radio Shack, Craft feels bespoke and a bit special. And because Craft, like Uno and Skulpt, can make sound without any external input, I find I use them about 10 times as much as I use Micromonsta, even though I know in my head that Micrmonsta is a much better synth than any of them. Because of its form factor it ends up being treated much more like a tool than an instrument. I don't feel anything like the same attachment to Micromonsta that I do to Uno or Craft, which is a bit of a shame because it's awesome.
I make all my presets directly on the Uno, I only use the app as a librarian (very useful when I had to send it back!).
I tend to be the opposite but that's more about my set-up than anything, as all my instruments are harder to reach than my laptop. I even bought a 3D printed riser/stand for Uno, from eBay, to try and make it more accessible but it's still easier to use the editor, as you can see -
Image
But for some reason Crave existing (and apparently modular synthesis as a whole) is a personally unresolvable affront to you and that isn't healthy to obsess over.
Modular synthesis has nothing to do with it. You continually choose to ignore the fact that Crave is just a terrible synth with nothing to offer - terrible oscillator, terrible filter, terrible modulators and an ordinary sequencer. If it had just one thing going for it, then I could see its value in a modular set-up but to overlook everything just because it has a patch bay is stupid on the face of it. If you have to use external oscillators, filters and modulation sources then it becomes grandfather's axe, doesn't it?
Define "valid" musical pursuits. This is some bizarre snobbery.
Clearly that's not the case if you've heard our music. I couldn't play an instrument to save my life, I am anything but a musical snob. But, at the end of the day, surely you buy a musical instrument to make music, not simply for the sake of having the thing? Yet the way you talk about it, it seems that nothing beyond having the thing really matters.
I mean, we hear some people whinging about pop music vis-a-vis avant garde/contemporary classical/new music, people disparage EDM, jazz is both venerated and disrespected, and now you want to talk about what sound generation methods are valid? Really?
They are all valid if you actually use them to make music but I am always going to have more respect for the artist who can get up and entertain an audience than I am for the one who can plug
the most patch cables into their instrument while they have their back to the audience. Or for the artist who can write a complete song, rather than someone who can just make all their sequences run in time for 5 minutes. Some things are easy, other things are hard. They aren't all equally worthy of respect.
Whether you intended it or not, that's how people are perceiving it.
That's on "people", not on me. When a post starts with "why" and the first sentence ends with a question mark. That's obviously and unambiguously a question. If "people" don't see that, I'm not sure there is anything more I can do to make it clearer.
If someone has something valuable to say it can be communicated in a variety of ways that isn't "come at me, bro" and "you're stupid".
No, that comes later, after they have failed to communicate anything of value. Again, if people can't answer a simple question rationally and objectively, what other options are available?
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Straylight, Quanta, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

yellowmix
KVRian
1392 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:35 am

Clutter.
Last edited by yellowmix on Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9058 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:37 pm

yellowmix wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:35 am
Eurorack jack sockets arranged in horizontal rows are not the same as what is commonly known as a routing "patchbay".
I think you'll find that the very definition of a patch bay is "jack sockets arranged in rows".
Since you do not understand fundamental aspects of modular systems
You've decided that, have you? Because I think I have pretty good handle on how modular systems work, which is precisely why I have no interest in them. You can't have an opinion about something unless and until you know what it is and/or how it works. That's just common sense.
Of course your own choices make sense to you.
Yes and when I discuss them, I try to present them in a way that allows anyone else to make sense of it. e.g. Instead of just asking "why would anyone buy Crave over Uno?" and leaving git at that, I go on to list the reasons I think you'd have to have rocks in your head. You know, the 2 x oscillators vs 1, the two ADSR envelopes vs 1 x ADS, the LFO with 7 waveforms vs just 2, etc. The question for you to answer is would you sell your Uno to buy a Crave? If your answer is "no", then you agree with me that Uno is a better buy than Crave, even for someone (you) who is into modular stuff. But all along you have been answering a different question to the one I asked.
It's really weird to think other people's choices are stupid and irrational just because you don't understand their internal process and life situation.
As I said before, if they are unwilling or unable to explain such choices, or their explanations make no sense, what other conclusion is there to draw? You seem to think that most people make good choices but if you look around you, you will see that almost nobody actually does.
Communication is a two-way street, too.
You'd never know it looking around this place.
Cool setup, and yeah, like I said earlier, I'm thinking of a way to arrange everything, vertically is definitely the way to go.
I find vertical arrangement much more tiring. I'm not sure why but that has definitely been my experience. In the old days, when I had my 01R/W, ESQ-M and rack mount effects, I found it much easier to work with if I built them into my stands at an angle. For some reason, horizontal button pressing gets very tiring and this was when I was young and spritely. It would kill me these days.
But not everyone appreciates bagpipes either, so to each their own.
I once shot at someone playing the agony-bags at 3am. It was only a blank but he didn't know that and it shut him up.
To clarify, the way the initial question in that thread was posed was a "come at me, bro".
No, that's just the way you chose to interpret it because you are used to being told things by your mummy, not by other men.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Straylight, Quanta, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

samsam
Suspended
3022 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:15 pm

Trps
Last edited by samsam on Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

samsam
Suspended
3022 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:16 pm

Dupe

samsam
Suspended
3022 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:18 pm

...
Last edited by samsam on Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

yellowmix
KVRian
1392 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 am

Clutter.
Last edited by yellowmix on Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Peter - IK Multimedia
KVRAF
6720 posts since 20 Oct, 2009

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:36 am

samsam wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:18 pm
Sorry for the multiples, quote nightmare.

Just wanted to say was considering this synth but will now avoid at all costs. Cheers.
Any specific reasons? It's quite a synth, and many who aren't affiliated with IK like I am agree.

Hopefully it doesn't have to do with two users arguing on a forum.
NEW: AmpliTube Brian May
Follow IK on Facebook for flash giveaways, exclusives, and more.
What you got just ain't interesting (or true).

User avatar
BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9058 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:30 pm

yellowmix wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:51 am
I try to present them in a way that allows anyone else to make sense of it. [...] I go on to list the reasons I think you'd have to have rocks in your head.
You don't think other people would weigh those reasons differently?
When they are unable or unwilling to provide any explanation as to how they arrive at their different conclusions, what other option is there? If someone writes something simple like "yeah, the envelope is a bit disappointing and the LFO probably won't be much use but I really only want it for the sequencer", you at least get some insight but when all you get is a kindergarten drawing done with crayons, it makes you lean towards other conclusions.
Do you think they think just like you
Mostly I get the impression they don't think at all.
The world does not revolve around you.
You have no idea, my friend. No idea at all. It is possibly the most accurate thing you have ever said, even if your path to the truth was the wrong one and your intention completely otherwise. But even a broken clock is right twice a day.
This is what you wrote: "So the question is, why on Earth would anyone buy Crave when they can have Uno for the same price?" I answered that in good faith.
But as you already own a Uno, it wasn't really relevant to your situation, was it?
So again what you write is not what you actually meant. We're not mind readers.
No mind reading required, simply the ability to think. A little common sense. If, for example, someone had asked the question about choosing Uno over Craft Synth 2.0, my answer would be that I would not choose Craft Synth 2.0 over Uno because Craft isn't as immediate as Uno and the things it does beyond what Uno can do are less important to me than the ease with which I can get great sounds from Uno. I'd then go on to say that it would be a really tough choice and that I feel very lucky that they are both so cheap I don't need to choose, I can have both and they complement each other very well.

Simple. Reasoned. Informative. It's not hard.
NOVAkILL 4.0 : Dell G7 17 (Core i7, 8GB RAM, Win10), UR44C, Cubase, DUNE, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Hive, Substance, Arcsyn, Aparillo, Straylight, Quanta, Trueno, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt, Craft 2.

yellowmix
KVRian
1392 posts since 11 Aug, 2012 from omfr morf form romf frmo

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:09 am

You asked "why on Earth would anyone buy Crave when they can have Uno for the same price?" (emphasis mine).

It's not asking for personal opinions. It's asking for an objective list of possible reasons under the sun. You got a (imo) thorough answer to your general question that allows for people's individual situations and preferences. Simple, straightforward, as the question required.

On the other hand, a general question like that goes through your head and somehow becomes an entirely personal question, which isn't useful for anyone other than someone in the exact same situation.

Look, you can insult me for answering a question as it was asked, because I know you're the unreasonable party here. I don't need your appreciation, I wrote it for other people too. There's two pages of me trying to reason with your anti-Crave crusade here and it helps no prospective buyer of the Uno, so now it's gone.

samsam
Suspended
3022 posts since 9 Dec, 2008

Re: IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

Post Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:40 am

...
Last edited by samsam on Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Return to “Hardware (Instruments and Effects)”