IK MUltimedia UNO Synth

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hellomrbike wrote:
Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Scotty wrote:USB noise in my experience cannot be solved by rf solutions like ferrite clamps and shielded cables. The USB noise is usually coming from within the computer (both hum and sometimes even hard drive chatter) and not being picked up by radio frequencies. There is no harm in trying that solution - it won't make it worse but my experience with this issue is a USB isolator is needed.

I had USB hum using specific laptops in the past and I was only able to solve that issue with the Hum Eliminator gadget. This is not a USB isolator. The hum was being picked up by the audio interface and could be heard on speakers and headphones.


https://www.amazon.com/Ebtech-Hum-Groun ... T4ZADSWQ4X
Same here. And I have an Ebtech unit like that in my home studio since one circuit definitely had hum and it was easier than getting someone to work on the wiring (I rent a house). Works like a charm for years now.
Would a ground loop noise isolator on the 3.5mm output side also do the trick? e.g.

https://www.amazon.ca/AUKEY-Ground-Isol ... B01M1671I0

My suspicion is that this is equivalent to the modified TRS cable, but I'm not quite confident. Since USB isolators cost around 3x more than an audio ground loop isolator, I'd like to make sure I'm exhausting the simpler options before going with the more expensive (albeit probably most correct) choice.
I don't know if anyone has talked about what these are doing, but, I will and I'm sorry if I'm repeating information.

These isolators, e.g., ebtech, are a fancy ground lift. There is a resistor in parallel with two back to back diodes. Normally there isn't enough current flowing at sufficient voltage through the ground conductor to cause conduction through either diode. In the case of a fault, which is the reason for the ground connector in the first place, the larger voltage would turn on the diodes causing current to flow. Hopefully it's not so much that it would take the diodes out, thus breaking the ground connection.

The low voltage USB noise won't cause the diodes to conduct. The parallel resistance allows the ground to remain connected, but with reduced current, breaking the loop. Should a fault occur, the diodes turn on. They should be of high enough current such that they will allow a fault condition to trigger the breaker in your house.

So, in terms of hum, they do the same thing as a cheap ground lift plug that you can get at the grocery store, that you should never use, even to test to see if that's the solution, because DANGER DANGER DANGER!

The thing is, there is some question as to whether the ebtech boxes pass code as, from what I've read, they violate the principle that the ground should be connected directly to the ground connection. They also seem quite small so I'm not sure how large the diode is in there. Finally, should a diode fail open, the box provides no fault protection.

The trick is to break the loop. Often DI boxes (with transformers) will also solve this problem. It depends on how many loops you have.

On Edit: Minor corrections to current vs voltage so as not to mislead. Silicon diodes need about 0.6V to conduct. The USB voltage is much much lower which is why a failure would cause the diodes to conduct and the USB noise does not.
Last edited by ghettosynth on Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dup...

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ghettosynth wrote:
hellomrbike wrote:
Peter - IK Multimedia wrote:
Scotty wrote:USB noise in my experience cannot be solved by rf solutions like ferrite clamps and shielded cables. The USB noise is usually coming from within the computer (both hum and sometimes even hard drive chatter) and not being picked up by radio frequencies. There is no harm in trying that solution - it won't make it worse but my experience with this issue is a USB isolator is needed.

I had USB hum using specific laptops in the past and I was only able to solve that issue with the Hum Eliminator gadget. This is not a USB isolator. The hum was being picked up by the audio interface and could be heard on speakers and headphones.


https://www.amazon.com/Ebtech-Hum-Groun ... T4ZADSWQ4X
Same here. And I have an Ebtech unit like that in my home studio since one circuit definitely had hum and it was easier than getting someone to work on the wiring (I rent a house). Works like a charm for years now.
Would a ground loop noise isolator on the 3.5mm output side also do the trick? e.g.

https://www.amazon.ca/AUKEY-Ground-Isol ... B01M1671I0

My suspicion is that this is equivalent to the modified TRS cable, but I'm not quite confident. Since USB isolators cost around 3x more than an audio ground loop isolator, I'd like to make sure I'm exhausting the simpler options before going with the more expensive (albeit probably most correct) choice.
I don't know if anyone has talked about what these are doing, but, I will and I'm sorry if I'm repeating information.

These isolators, e.g., ebtech, are a fancy ground lift. There is a resistor in parallel with two back to back diodes. Normally there isn't enough current flowing through the ground conductor to cause conduction through either diode. In the case of a fault, which is the reason for the ground connector in the first place, the larger current would turn on the diodes causing current to flow. Hopefully it's not so much that it would take the diodes out, thus breaking the ground connection.

The low voltage USB noise won't cause the diodes to conduct. The parallel resistance allows the ground to remain connected, but with reduced current, breaking the loop. Should a fault occur, the diodes turn on. They should be of high enough current such that they will allow a fault condition to trigger the breaker in your house.

So, in terms of hum, they do the same thing as a cheap ground lift plug that you can get at the grocery store, that you should never use, even to test to see if that's the solution, because DANGER DANGER DANGER!

The thing is, there is some question as to whether the ebtech boxes pass code as, from what I've read, they violate the principle that the ground should be connected directly to the ground connection. They also seem quite small so I'm not sure how large the diode is in there. Finally, should a diode fail open, the box provides no fault protection.

The trick is to break the loop. Often DI boxes (with transformers) will also solve this problem. It depends on how many loops you have.
Thanks for sharing this insight, that was super interesting to read. It also seems strange to think that these Ebtech boxes are effectively just lifting the ground (which seems both dangerous and silly, considering how much they cost).

So in contrast to this approach, I gather that a ground loop isolator is the safer option, as it functions through the use of a transformer? To my understanding this wouldn't actually lift the ground, but rather just transfer the signal voltage from one winding to the other, leaving the ground intact.

EDIT: Also, just to follow up on one of my earlier posts, I was able to sit down and do a couple of direct comparisons of the frequency spectra with and without the ground loop isolator in the 3.5mm output of the UNO.

First, we have the noise spectra with and without the GLI:

No ground loop isolator:
Image

With ground loop isolator:
Image

You can see that the highest amplitude peak drops by about 40dB (!!!) with the GLI in place.

Next, a C0 saw wave played with open filter and no resonance:

No ground loop isolator:
Image

With ground loop isolator:
Image

You can see here that the differences in amplitude when one introduces "harmonic content" are basically negligible (I would venture that any differences are attributable to the higher noise floor from the ground loop).

Particularly notable is the amplitude of the fundamental around 30Hz stays basically the same, indicating that the GLI is not cutting out low end at all, as was initially feared. So one can dial down the cutoff frequency of the filter and hear no noise, making sub basses, long filter sweeps, etc. feasible when running off of USB power. So, all in all, it appears that the ground loop isolator is working as intended.

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Excellent and informative post thanks hellomrbike.

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hellomrbike wrote: So in contrast to this approach, I gather that a ground loop isolator is the safer option, as it functions through the use of a transformer? To my understanding this wouldn't actually lift the ground, but rather just transfer the signal voltage from one winding to the other, leaving the ground intact.
Yes, the ground loop isolator that uses a transformer also breaks the loop and it does this without lifting the safety ground. Experts say that proper grounding can really help as well but that's no easy task, especially in a home studio.

The only problem with using transformers, other than how they color the sound, is that, depending on your setup, you may need a few of them and they can get expensive.

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SLiC wrote:Try this (from Gearslutz forum)

Sending the following two SySex messages should enable this for you and get you working.

F0 00 21 1A 02 01 11 01 7F F7
F0 00 21 1A 02 01 21 00 05 01 F7

MIDI Tools is a great easy to use tool for sending or receiving different MIDI and SySex messages. Check this out here. If you are unfamiliar with SySex messages, let the support team walk you through this process.
AWESOME! That did the trick very nicely. Thanks heaps for the quick response, it would have killed me having to wait until after work on Monday to swap it for a new one. Here's an actual link to MIDI Tools - https://download.freedownloadmanager.or ... 2.0.1.html

So far it's a great little synth. Nice sound, easy to use and just heaps of fun to play with. Things sure have come a long way since I paid $200 for an Electro Harmonix Mini Synthesizer back in 1982.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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BONES wrote:
SLiC wrote:Try this (from Gearslutz forum)

Sending the following two SySex messages should enable this for you and get you working.

F0 00 21 1A 02 01 11 01 7F F7
F0 00 21 1A 02 01 21 00 05 01 F7

MIDI Tools is a great easy to use tool for sending or receiving different MIDI and SySex messages. Check this out here. If you are unfamiliar with SySex messages, let the support team walk you through this process.
AWESOME! That did the trick very nicely. Thanks heaps for the quick response, it would have killed me having to wait until after work on Monday to swap it for a new one. Here's an actual link to MIDI Tools - https://download.freedownloadmanager.or ... 2.0.1.html

So far it's a great little synth. Nice sound, easy to use and just heaps of fun to play with. Things sure have come a long way since I paid $200 for an Electro Harmonix Mini Synthesizer back in 1982.
No worries.

Yup, its one iof those little boxes thats easy to dial up a good sound, good basic analog shapes and an nice filter....great value for money (even in the current competitive market)

The editor looks like it will be a great edition as well (few teething problems with V1 but I have confidence that IK are 100% behind there little hardware synth project, support has been excellent so far)
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live+PUSH 3 Standalone, Reason, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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I have been able to get reliable patch loading of the vst3 plugin by turning off the UNO after the editor is launched and restarting the uno and redirecting the midi to uno usb. I have to do this each time I load the plugin or cubase project which contains it but it is usable and a lot of fun to automate.

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I seem to have to set mine up every time I load it. It doesn't seem to find the UNO, even though it is there in the device list, so I have to select it manually from the drop-down.

I actually like playing it from the keyboard. In fact, I've also been using it as a MIDI controller (and to double it up) with the MicroMonsta. The keyboard is fully polyphonic, even if the synth engine isn't. It could end up replacing my Roli! I need to concentrate a bit to play it but I like sliding from note to note instead of banging them one at a time.

Scotty, I notice you have a DP|4, how do you deal with the noise? It is far and away the noisiest piece of kit I've ever owned. I put up with it while I had an ASR-10 to use with it but after I sold the ASR, I ditched it ASAP.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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How is everyone going after a month? I still use my Uno pretty much every day. Sometimes via the VST editor but mostly just playing it from its own keyboard. It really is a fantastic little beastie and way more capable than I would have believed possible. Sometimes the interaction between the oscillators sounds so fat you'd swear there was some unison involved. I don't think I've switched my Analog Keys on since I got it. (The AK definitely sounds amazing but it is the exact opposite of fun to play with.)

That said, there are one or two things I reckon they could add via a firmware update that would be handy. Top of that list would be retrigger modes for the envelopes. Currently they only retrigger when you are playing non legato but given how much fun it is to slide your fingers from note to note, it would be nice if I could force them to retrigger on every new note. Some simple cross-modulation between oscillators would be awesome, even if it's only accessible via the editor, but I'm not sure if that's doable or not. Hard sync would be top of my list if it is possible.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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Hey Bones.

I really like the Uno. I am DAW based in a studio not live so I being tethered to the DAW to have the editor and automation with the plugin is ideal for me. I discovered that to get the editor to see the UNO I just have to start the plugin when the UNO is off. It must send a message to the plugin to say "hello" after it has calibrated. If I do that the plugin works flawlessly except that the arps won't sync to DAW and the sequences won't play but I can live with that as I can do my sequences and arps in the DAW. The automation is killer. The only other analog synth that I have with this much midi support is the SubPhatty.

Regarding the DP/4 . I mostly use it for the reverbs and the delays. They have a really dark and appealing tone. I haven't had any noise issues to be concerned with here. I have pretty clean power with a dedicated AC lines into my studio and plug the DP/4 and other gear into rack power supplies which are supposed to have some noise suppression built in. I found that I have to the keep the input knobs to about the 10 O'Clock position and the outputs I can push to about 2 O'Clock... If I boost the inputs and outputs beyond that I get more noise that I want. I use it in dual stereo mode.

The amp and speaker emulations that are in the DP/4 are kind of noisy by design and I don't use them. Other than that a great box and I would be truly depressed if it broke. I have had it since 1995.

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Thanks for the tip about the editor. I worked out that if I need to sequence it live I can just use a MIDI generator in my host so I stopped worrying about the problem. I got rid of my DP|4 around '99 or 2000, I think. I hadn't really noticed the noise while it was attached to the ASR-10 but as soon as I tried using it standalone, the noise was unbearably obvious. I was disappointed but I got over it.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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Sonic State did a reasonably thorough review video of the UNO ... Even if you already own it I think the video is worth a watch... Nick Batt coaxes some sounds out it which I hadn't heard before/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnC6KedrinM

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This is the first and only proper review of this I've seen. Everyone else is too busy trying to be first and they don't give you any info you didn't get from the SuperBooth reveal a few months ago. That sound he finishes with is ridiculously huge!
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.

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Agreed... Sonic State does some pretty in depth reviews and Nick Batt knows his way around the gear. Some great tones towards the end of the video for sure.

I just watched an IK UNO editor video and it was good but he skipped over the plugin version which allows automation and he doesn't mention any of the bugs. No doubt a lot of work was put into the video but major details like that leave so many questions unanswered... still worth a watch for those who are trying to better understand what is missing from the front panel but accessible through midi CC with or without the editor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAeQNoFzibQ


BONES wrote:This is the first and only proper review of this I've seen. Everyone else is too busy trying to be first and they don't give you any info you didn't get from the SuperBooth reveal a few months ago. That sound he finishes with is ridiculously huge!

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