Where's aftertouch on most keyboards? Don't you guys use it?

[incubus]

This thread makes kitteh scared now

What a train-wreck.

[himalaya]

Vince...was...taking...the...piss.

It is a train wreck, Thanks Numanoid. Adults tried to have a conversation until you arrived. Over and out.

[ghettosynth]

Imagine if guitar players were suddenly forced to use guitars that didn't allow the strings to bend...

It's like that for players whose primary instrument is keyboards.

Frankly, i always thought that was rather the modwheel function. In the gazillions of synth sound demos, ESPECIALLY from very good keyboard players, i have yet to see someone who used aftertouch, while loads made use of the modwheel, to either add vibrato, control filter cutoff, or add volume modulation of some kind. Don't get me wrong, i can imagine that aftertouch allows for very cool stuff, but, it may not be as popular, and widely used, as some believe here. Same with sustain pedals.

But, hey, if keyboard manufacturers add it, and sound designers add use of it to their presets, all the better.

Do you play keyboards at all? Guitar? The mod wheel generally doesn't bend notes. The pitch bend wheel bends notes and it is not at all like bending notes on a guitar unless you're playing monophonic lines.

The closest thing to bending notes like you can on a guitar is polyphonic aftertouch applied to pitch. Channel aftertouch is more like the mod-wheel that doesn't require a hand/finger to be free.

I still do think the pitch bend wheel is much better for that, than applying aftertouch for fast synth lines (or slower stuff), because you hardly have control that way. If then, i use it to apply filter cutoff on very slow pad stuff, and likes. And, again, i NEVER have seen anyone using it in a keyboard demo.

I'm not sure how you got there because that's not what I'm arguing. But, just because you don't see keyboard players doing it doesn't mean that it's not a good idea.

To be clear, we're talking about polyphonic aftertouch and there are very few keyboards that have polyphonic aftertouch, so, of course you don't see many people using it that way.

As far as not having control, that's EXACTLY the point. Aftertouch needs to not be an afterthought but a key design element in keyboards. With a well designed polyphonic aftertouch it's certainly possible to mimic guitar style bends. For me, it's bad enough that it's not there, but it should also have the ability to apply different curves. Control then becomes a matter of developing technique against a well engineered solution.

However, with respect to channel aftertouch, it's not a solution except on monophonic keyboards or with the use of monophonic lines and, in those cases, it is sometimes used that way, but, not often because if you're playing a monophonic line you often have a free hand.

Of course, if you want to play chords with the left hand and leads with the right, you are back to square one.

If you get the curve right though, in my opinion, aftertouch IS more natural. The pitch bend wheel is actually closer to a whammy bar/tremolo than it is an individual note bend.

[Numanoid]

I'm not sure how you got there because that's not what I'm arguing. But, just because you don't see keyboard players doing it doesn't mean that it's not a good idea.

To get a feel of it can you mention some players (except Vangelis) using it so I can listen to their playing, to determine if it makes a difference.

[ghettosynth]

I'm not sure how you got there because that's not what I'm arguing. But, just because you don't see keyboard players doing it doesn't mean that it's not a good idea.

To get a feel of it can you mention some players (except Vangelis) using it so I can listen to their playing, to determine if it makes a difference.

Yes I could, but you wouldn't know them so it would make no difference here. However, if you're going to make a silly ad-populum argument, you don't get to dismiss one of the most famous keyboard players known just because it suits your point of view.

If that doesn't make immediate sense to you, look up Dunning Kruger.

[ghettosynth]

Can we maybe start talking about which current traditional keyboards support channel and/or poly aftertouch?

[Numanoid]

Yes I could, but you wouldn't know them so it would make no difference here.

I don't need to know an artist to listen to them, can't you just state some examples, that I can look up on youtube

However, if you're going to make a silly ad-populum argument, you don't get to dismiss one of the most famous keyboard players known just because it suits your point of view.

I am not dismissing Vangelis, I know his music to the bone. That is why I am asking for additional examples. I am always looking to educate myself.

[ghettosynth]

Yes I could, but you wouldn't know them so it would make no difference here.

I don't need to know an artist to listen to them, can't you just state some examples, that I can look up on youtube

Here you go, in this video Vince Clark makes powerful use of aftertouch to make a mosquito sound. You can't get much more famous than that, right? I mean, I think that he's sold something like 10 million records.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WefitLW06EM

[ghettosynth]

Here's a discussion on gearslutz about this topic from 2010.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electro ... touch.html

[foosnark]

Some musicians are really ignorant, when they're so full of themselves that they easily dismiss something which is useful to others, when they have no use for it themselves. I'm sure that statement was one of those. I read stuff like that before, from other musicians.

My feeling is: I would rather not pay more for a keyboard that has aftertouch.

There absolutely should be keyboards that have aftertouch, because there are people who want that. There should also be keyboards that don't.

Which is exactly the situation we are in. So what's the problem?

[himalaya]

There absolutely should be keyboards that have aftertouch, because there are people who want that. There should also be keyboards that don't.

Which is exactly the situation we are in. So what's the problem?

Some of the problems have been highlighted numerous times in this thread. Here is the summary:

1. Aftertouch availability.
It's not available as often as you would think. I would imagine that any keyboard that costs more than £800 ought to have aftertouch as standard, but, there are many, many keyboards that do not have aftertouch at this higher price point.

I would also want to have more topions to buy a two octave midi keyboard with aftertouch since even with two octaves aftertouch is important to my work.

2. Aftertouch design, ie: sensitivity.
This is the issue which I can see can put people off using aftertouch. Simply, most aftertouch implementations do not work in a smooth, controllable manner. The mechanisms in most keyboards works almost as an 'on-off' switch, difficult to balance for smooth, continuous pressure gestures.

3. Aftertouch design, ie: aftertouch vs continous touch.
This would allow us to switch the pressure response from the usual aftertouch (be it channel or poly) to contiunous pressure, as seen on the new breed of MPE controllers. We had seen this implementation in the failed Note keyboard (or whatever it was called). The software allowed those two modes which controlled a patented light sensor. This light sensor could provide normal aftertouch and contiunous sensing pressure. Continuous pressure is perfect for sounds like winds, reeds, bowed strings, where the dynamic expression is best controlled via a continuous controller.

You can simulate this dual-approach on the Seaboard RISE with its Equator synth. By default RISE responds to continuous pressure, but you can set a specific expression curve on the pressure modulation source to simulate proper 'aftertouch' behaviour.

4. Lack of Polyphonic-aftertouch on traditional keyboards.
Poly-at, is what makes aftertouch (expression via pressure) very special. This is the type of aftertouch which allows for very intricate, beautiful expression. Despite some voices here proclaiming that you need to be a virtuoso to make it work, this is not that case. Far from it. As long as you can play a few chords, poly-at can add to your performance by allowing you to get easy, intuitive and immediate modulations to the sound. The hands stay on the keyboard, and yet you can get huge changes to the sound, as if you were tweaking knobs with your hands. So rather than use 'aftergrab', you can use poly-aftertouch. Much easier.

[himalaya]

There is yet another problem:

5. Educating people to the benefit of using 'aftertouch'.

Like seen in the video I posted a few pages back, even some very skilled players do not realise how much easier it would be for them to assign vibrato to pressure, rather than have to sacrifice the left hand and stop playing in order to reach to the mod wheel and apply vibrato that way.

Or an example for less skilled players who do not noodle but still want to play-in some chords into their DAWs: you play a few chords, but each chord in your electronic track wants to have some cool modulations. So you play those chords, but then you have to sacrifice your left hand to reach to the knobs to alter the sound as you continue playing the chords, but now with less notes, since your left hand is not playing anymore. With aftertouch, it's child's play to keep both hands on the keyboard, apply some modulation as you press in, and this way get a better performance, as you focus on playing, the keys and nothing else.

[BERFAB]

Is there a way to easily identify which patches in, say, Omnisphere 2 take advantage of aftertouch? Or any of the KOMPLETE instruments?

[JCJR]

I recall routinely using the aftertouch long ago on a Yamaha CS60. Which was fairly responsive but only happened when I wanted AT to happen. OTOH didn't have to mash the keys really hard to get it to kick in.

The keyboard would probably need excellent tweaking of the pressure parms before I'd much care to use it. Some keyboards responded to aftertouch too sensitive, getting accidental AT when not wanted, having to disable AT either in the controller or patches to avoid annoyance. My old KX88 AT requires mashing the keys fairly hard. So I don't have to disable AT. Just rarely use the feature by not routinely leaning that hard into the keyboard.

My SL88 Studio has AT but haven't so far even tested the AT behavior.

Some of the Channel AT keyboards had "somewhat flexible" key mounting and an LED/Photoresistor mounted to the frame to sense key pressure. Some have used conductive foam pressure sensors. Foam can get old, get crumbly or "flat" with age. Maybe some older keyboards that don't respond quite right to Channel AT, could be caused by degraded components which could be improved via maintenance or adjustment? Dunno.

Channel AT would be better for my uses, though probably most keyboards that can transmit Poly AT could also be set to send Channel AT instead? In the past, mainly used it for touch vibrato on leads, or add touch agitation to strings, or touch vibrato on horn chord stabs.

Main thing I had against poly AT-- If I have it sensitive enough to properly respond to pressure from the weak fingers, it is too-sensitive to pressure from strong fingers. Or if set to work about right on the strong fingers, it is too insensitive to work very good with the weak fingers.

Maybe some better-performing Poly AT keyboard I've never played would work better somehow. Ferinstance adding vibrato to occasional chords in an R&B synth horn part, but no vibrato on most of the notes in the part-- With Channel AT, grabbing a chord with some strong fingers and some weak fingers, I can control vibrato on all the notes via the strong fingers.

In that same scenario with Poly AT, if set insensitive enough to avoid accidental vibrato, then chord notes under the weak fingers would be difficult to get enough vibrato, except by straining the weak fingers pushing down on those keys harder than the weak fingers can put up with.

[chk071]

I'm really puzzled about that Vince Clark vid. Does he really not know what aftertouch is, or is he having a laugh about the Arturia guys, who taught him aftertouch? I mean, i can't really magine that someone who has seen centuries of snythesizers, and has a whole shitload of them in his studio, doesn't know about aftertouch. On the other hand, some musicians (no offense) clouded their minds so hard with drugs, that i wouldn't be surprised if he actually doesn't know about aftertouch.