Roli Seaboard RISE

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
3635 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:27 am

himalaya wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:57 am
Isn't it time to be exploring poly-expression at last? It is where it's at for me (and not in the virtuosic 'Marco Parisi' manner, but a much simpler style which still gives immense sonic expression).

I just feel that somehow, people are not really utilising these MPE instruments to the full if we get conclusions such as this one. :)
That is exactly my feeling when BONES proposes monophonic playing. I have so much fun playing polyphonic on the LinnStrument. It especially shines way better and easier if you bend a chord from major to minor or vice versa...
Bending a chord just with a pitch wheel breaks easily century old rules for chord progressions and avoiding parallel movements which are there for good reasons. Being able to have a choice there is worth a lot, but you have to be conscious about the ability of choice. And you have to devote some time to explore it...

Mats Eriksson
KVRist
128 posts since 4 Sep, 2016

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:32 pm

deastman wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:08 am
I’ve also struggled with what to actually use these instruments for. I don’t make wub wub EDM or virtuoso jazz or anything where solo performance needs to stand out. What I’ve eventually settled on is simply small bits of musical gestures, which when combined as a whole, make for more interesting music than a traditional keyboard would give me.
Yes, I've struggled too, but with the reliability, and coherence of Roli. One thing that one can do with Roli (don't know if this particular treat exists on Haken) is whenever having a symphonic harp patch preset thrown in. On regular keyboard, when you try to impersonate a full "Harp strum" you can only strum on the white keys and do a glissando. On Roli, if you set the gaps to nil, not floating between the nots, you can glide underneath the actual keys, with the ribbon, and glide full chromatically up or down, just like a real harp patch, because a real harp strum, is chromatic, takes all the "white" keys and "black" keys in order. I used to cheat even with a piano patch set up on the Roli, people gets that little weird look, and frown with their eyes and thinks somethings wrong, or more right, because it doesn't sound "real". When doing gliss all over the white, black keys equally as swift... they get funny looks on their faces. The thing I want with that - a very narrow kind of piano music, and esoteric genre, is to impersonate the piano player rolls composition of avant garde composer Conlon Nancarrow (talk about rhyming with NARROW .. as his music genre was). You can go "ddrrrriiittt" in a second of all octaves, chromatic, at least on a Roli Seaboard Grand.

But it only works so far. But it works.

I would love to that if just Roli, and Haken had immediate touch on percussive instruments. Like skin contact response, that just by the contact of the "keyboard" it should react to playing instruments. It should be set. As it is for now, trying gamelans, hand-pans, hang, marimbas, steel pans, bells, it feels a little too sluggish to perform, as the silicon keyboard takes a while to press with enough force down. I guess this wouldn't be able without some metallic thread on the surface of the Roli/Haken and would be worn down quite quickly.

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BassMasterK
KVRist
158 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Portland, OR

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:48 am

Hey Mats, if you are looking for an accurate harp glissando, you actually have it with a glissando across the white keys. The traditional harp is not tuned in chromatic fashion, but is tuned to a scale. Then levers or pedals are used, depending on the type of harp, to change strings to the sharps or flats assuming a traditional C tuning. It sounds like you may be looking for a fully chromatic glissando anyhow in which case this info I'm giving is just historical info, but if you are really looking for an accurate "harp glissando" then just doing it across the white keys is the most accurate way to do it.

I'm going to have to check out this composer you mention. I have never heard of him. Best of luck in your music making.
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9287 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 pm

himalaya wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:57 am
It's with chords where these controllers come to life for me. But of course, to get the best expression when playing chords and trying to articulate expressive gestures, requires practice and skill (rightly so).
I mean, we have always been able to get a lot of expression when playing monophonic lines. By using the standard controllers like mod+pitch wheels, pedals, breath controllers, etc, a monophonic instrument/line can be as alive as one would ever wish for. Conversely, it was never possible to do the same with polyphonic electronic instruments/sounds/chords until the advent of the new breed of MPE/5D midi controllers.
Of course it was. Combinations in KORG workstations, from the M1 onwards, made doing stuff like that fairly straightforward. You just had to create the Combi first, which rarely took more than a few minutes. Once you saved it, it was there whenever you wanted it.
So, I can not understand why you would come to that conclusion.
I come to that conclusion because I can't see any useful means of exploiting it, beyond that one simple scenario I've already mentioned a few times. I am not going to do something just because I can, I do things because it makes sense to do them.
However, I can still do it on an MPE controller: simply assign a fader (like one of the faders on the RISE) to master pitch in the patch, and use this fader as the 'pitch bend wheel'. Very simple, and works great (although without the benefit of the spring-loaded wheel).
Can't do that on a Seaboard Block.
But forget chords. Even a simple duophonic line is so much more interesting when played on an MPE instrument. Sustain a note in the left hand, and solo/noodle with the right hand, keeping each note independent with pressure, slide, and pitch. So satisfying to play!
A Combi with a simple keyboard split on a Korg M1 allowed me to do that 30 years ago. It's not really new or exciting.
And then, often I just do not want to play anything complex at all, and I'd rather just trigger some arpeggiated patches. Again, play a few simple chords and mangle the arp with poly-expression. So good! So easy.
Motion sequences, P-Locks, etc. Nothing new here, either.
Isn't it time to be exploring poly-expression at last?
Only if there is something to be gained by it.
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Mats Eriksson
KVRist
128 posts since 4 Sep, 2016

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:11 am

When referring to MPE is that the same (exactly) as 5D ?

Or is it a subset of term, or umbrella term for additional MIDI expression messages?
Does MPE/5D keeps some kind of MIDI standard, or it is all proprietary to each company? Like, Roli has one, LinnStrument sports another entirely different thing, and Haken yet another?

When one tries to add to the MIDI protocol arbitrarily it always opens up a can of worms, or Pandoras box. The outcome of this is that "Thank God for standards, there are so many to chose from..."

himalaya
KVRAF
5166 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:18 am

MPE = 5D

Basically, MPE allows you to control five dimensions (5D) of touch: velocity, poly-pitch bend, pressure, CC-74 , release velocity. ROLI names these as STRIKE (velocity), BEND (poly-pitch bend), PRESS (pressure), SLIDE (CC74), LIFT (release velocity).

MPE is the standard (for Multi-Polyphonic Expression) and each company adopting it, should adhere to the official MPE specification.
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VSTi and hardware synth sound design

Mats Eriksson
KVRist
128 posts since 4 Sep, 2016

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:24 am

ok thanks I got it. One can use MPE and 5D interchangeably without getting scolded from down up...

himalaya
KVRAF
5166 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am

BONES wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 pm

Can't do that on a Seaboard Block.
But you can, on your Lighblock M. In your sig I see that you own a Seaboard Block and a Lightblock M.
You can configure the Lighblock M via Dashboard to do all sorts of things, one of them allows you to get the Seaboard RISE faders or the XY pad.
Or configure it to play a game instead. :D


BONES wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 pm
himalaya wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:57 am
But forget chords. Even a simple duophonic line is so much more interesting when played on an MPE instrument. Sustain a note in the left hand, and solo/noodle with the right hand, keeping each note independent with pressure, slide, and pitch. So satisfying to play!
A Combi with a simple keyboard split on a Korg M1 allowed me to do that 30 years ago. It's not really new or exciting.
Has it? Are you sure? Your split does not allow you to control all that you can on the Seaboard. All the stuff I mentioned above. In your split, each hand will be able to independently control: velocity and aftertouch. That's it. But how do you control pitch-bend independently for reach hand as you play with both hands? Not possible. And remember, you don't need to control pitch with BEND (with the poly-pitch dimension) you can assign BEND to anything, at least in Equator/Strobe2/Cypher2. Try a ring-mod on bend for some very cool sounds.

How do you control release-velocity? As far as I remember the M1 does not support it.
You could mimic SLIDE with the two assignable pedals that the M1 supports, maybe. I haven't tried it on the M1.

But as you can see, you will not be able to recreate the richness of expression of an MPE controller like the RISE in something like the 30 year old M1. Not only that, the whole process of setting up the split, dealing with two pedals, assigning them...it's such a palaver, such a heavy workflow, whereas an MPE patch is ready to go! There is nothing that is required to be set up, just load a preset and play it.


BONES wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 pm
himalaya wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:57 am
And then, often I just do not want to play anything complex at all, and I'd rather just trigger some arpeggiated patches. Again, play a few simple chords and mangle the arp with poly-expression. So good! So easy.
Motion sequences, P-Locks, etc. Nothing new here, either.
Well, my mentioning of the 5D arp patches is not to prove that 5D arp patches bring something that you could not program with those motion sequences and p-locks, but that they are a non-complex way to have lots of fun with 5D expression. Load a 5D arp patch and have instant, expressive sound that does not require any skill to play and have fun with.

Still, a 5D arp patch is new in context of live, keyboard based expression. Such, never existed until only recently, until Cypher2 introduced the concept of a 5D arpeggiated patch (thanks Angus H.).


BONES wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 pm
himalaya wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:57 am
Isn't it time to be exploring poly-expression at last?
Only if there is something to be gained by it.
I think there is so much to be gained by it. It's sad to read your last statement, because you own MPE controllers but are not utilising them for 5D expression, it seems.
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VSTi and hardware synth sound design

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9287 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am

himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
BONES wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Can't do that on a Seaboard Block.
You can, on your Lighblock M. In your sig I see that you own a Seaboard Block and a Lightblock M.
Yes but they are two different products.
Has it? Are you sure? Your split does not allow you to control all that you can on the Seaboard. All the stuff I mentioned above. In your split, each hand will be able to independently control: velocity and aftertouch.
That's not what you said. What you said was "sustain a note in the left hand, and solo/noodle with the right hand" and anyone could do that on an M1.
But how do you control pitch-bend independently for reach hand as you play with both hands?
Why would you want to? That's my whole point - most of the things you can do with MPE are things you wouldn't want or need to do and the things you can do with MPE aren't that hard to do without it.
How do you control release-velocity?
Why would I want to? It seems to me like the most pointless thing. I've racked my brain trying to think of a use for it and come up with nothing.
As far as I remember the M1 does not support it.
Mate, the M1 doesn't have aftertouch, either, but your term "noodling" is ill-defined.
you can see, you will not be able to recreate the richness of expression of an MPE controller like the RISE in something like the 30 year old M1.
But that doesn't flow from MPE, it comes from the 5 dimensions of touch, which is my entire point. 5D touch is what matters, MPE is a distraction. They are two separate things but people seem to struggle to separate them.
Not only that, the whole process of setting up the split, dealing with two pedals, assigning them...it's such a palaver, such a heavy workflow, whereas an MPE patch is ready to go!
Where? How do I use MPE with DUNE, Hive, Thorn, ArcSyn or Synthmaster One? Way more "palaver" involved in that.
Well, my mentioning of the 5D arp patches is not to prove that 5D arp patches bring something that you could not program with those motion sequences and p-locks
Why couldn't you? It's just modulation, nothing special.
BONES wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 pm
himalaya wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:57 am
Isn't it time to be exploring poly-expression at last?
Only if there is something to be gained by it.
I think there is so much to be gained by it. It's sad to read your last statement, because you own MPE controllers but are not utilising them for 5D expression, it seems.
See, you are getting two different things confused again. I love my Seaboard. It's why I bought a second one but I don't need MPE to thoroughly enjoy the experience of 5D touch because the two things are entirely different. I'd also point out that you could get a lot out of MPE without 5D touch if that's what you are interested in doing because you don't need one to take advantage of the other.
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pdxindy
KVRAF
16259 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:14 am

BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
But how do you control pitch-bend independently for reach hand as you play with both hands?
Why would you want to? That's my whole point - most of the things you can do with MPE are things you wouldn't want or need to do and the things you can do with MPE aren't that hard to do without it.
Just because you wouldn't want to doesn't mean I don't want to.

I find MPE pitchbend musically useful. I can play a G, and slide the notes into an A minor. Not possible to do that with a regular pitchwheel.

But even if one were going from G to A, it sounds different. With the pitchwheel, all 3 notes are locked in pitch. With per note pitch, there is a slight variation as each finger moves independently. It sounds richer and more nuanced. And of course I can purposefully lag one note behind the other 2 for effect. Beautiful stuff!

It does not occupy a hand and is so intuitive and natural feeling. It also allows me to play a melody with a poly patch. Something like a Koto for example. Even though it might be a 'mono' line, the previous note is still decaying when I play the next note. Cannot do that with regular pitchbend cause it will also bend the previous still decaying note.

Totally get it if it is not of use to you, but for me, polyphonic per voice pitchbend is one of the best things to ever happen to synths!

himalaya
KVRAF
5166 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:32 am

But then, the BEND dimension does not even need to be used for pitch! It can be easily re-assigned to another parameter! So, rather than bending the pitch, we can add additional timbral variation, in addition to any timbre-related stuff assigned to SLIDE or PRESS. Powerful stuff.
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VSTi and hardware synth sound design

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7518 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:47 am

This conversation has been had long ago in this thread. If Bones doesn't understand the benefits of MPE by this point then he never will. More likely though is that independent control per note is not something he finds useful and therefor claims that it's not useful for anyone, which is clearly not true for most other people who use MPE devices. Definitely not worth arguing about though. It's like trying to convince someone that an 8-voice polysynth is useful when they say "But I can just use 8 mono synths. Why would I need to play multiple notes at a time on a single keyboard?".
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
9287 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:19 am

I understand the benefits very well. They are minor, at best, completely overshadowed by the benefits of the 5 dimensions of touch. Think about it, how useful would an MPE controller be if it used a normal piano keyboard with pitch-bend and mod wheel? OTOH, something like a Seaboard works really, really well with or without MPE.
pdxindy wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:14 am
Just because you wouldn't want to doesn't mean I don't want to.
Well, I've been asking for three or four weeks now for people to offer some examples but so far I've only got one thing back, which tends to indicate that it ain't just me.
I find MPE pitchbend musically useful. I can play a G, and slide the notes into an A minor. Not possible to do that with a regular pitchwheel.
But should be with polyphonic portamento, I'd imagine? And are you talking SLIDE or GLIDE? Because I don't find dragging my finger sideways across the keyboard to feel very musical at all. Not very controllable/ smooth on the Seaboard Block, either. When I use GLIDE, it's always from the top or bottom of the Seaboard, above/below the keywaves.
But even if one were going from G to A, it sounds different. With the pitchwheel, all 3 notes are locked in pitch. With per note pitch, there is a slight variation as each finger moves independently. It sounds richer and more nuanced. And of course I can purposefully lag one note behind the other 2 for effect. Beautiful stuff!
Yeah, same example someone else gave the other day (or maybe you did). Seems very specialised to me, not something you'd be doing with every chord change. Which is not to invalidate it, just to say that the use cases are specific and uncommon, where people carry on as though it's something they need for every part they play or record and they won't touch anything that doesn't support MPE. It's got to be putting people off.
Even though it might be a 'mono' line, the previous note is still decaying when I play the next note. Cannot do that with regular pitchbend cause it will also bend the previous still decaying note.
But you could do it just by playing different notes, couldn't you? You know, the way you'd play anything.
Last edited by BONES on Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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himalaya
KVRAF
5166 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:24 am

May I address your points? :D
BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
BONES wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Can't do that on a Seaboard Block.
You can, on your Lighblock M. In your sig I see that you own a Seaboard Block and a Lightblock M.
Yes but they are two different products.
Why should it matter? You own both so you can accomplish the pitch-wheel pitch bend as described a few posts back.


BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
Has it? Are you sure? Your split does not allow you to control all that you can on the Seaboard. All the stuff I mentioned above. In your split, each hand will be able to independently control: velocity and aftertouch.
That's not what you said. What you said was "sustain a note in the left hand, and solo/noodle with the right hand" and anyone could do that on an M1.
Well, the intention is always to use all the expressivity of the RISE. So I sustain the note and then add expression to it via SLIDE, BEND, PRESS, and when the phrase is finished, I can add even LIFT, to end the line with an additional expressive tone.

Same with the solo in the right hand. I solo, but not without any expression.
I think this should be taken for granted in this thread that when we say that we play an MPE instrument we don't play it like on a normal plastic midi keyboard but instead, we play it with all the expression afforded by the technology.

BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
But how do you control pitch-bend independently for reach hand as you play with both hands?
Why would you want to? That's my whole point - most of the things you can do with MPE are things you wouldn't want or need to do and the things you can do with MPE aren't that hard to do without it.
Simply to add expression. You are continuously missing this point. That's why I question some of the conclusions made earlier. Why own an MPE controller if all the expressive capabilities inherent in the '5D design', are alien to you?
Like I've mentioned before, you don't need to use pitch on the BEND dimension. Assign it to any other parameter and use the BEND dimension like SLIDE, but going sideways.

How to do it: In Equator or Cypher2 delete the pitch assigned to BEND, and simply re-assign it to some other parameters. You get a 'ribbon' controller, alongside the SLIDE 'ribbon' controller.


BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
How do you control release-velocity?
Why would I want to? It seems to me like the most pointless thing. I've racked my brain trying to think of a use for it and come up with nothing.
Again, to add expression in real-time. I've posted a video in some threads to show an example , and there are many other examples from ROLI available on YouTube. Link me up with the type of music you make and I will try to provide a practical example of how LIFT can help in your production.


BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
As far as I remember the M1 does not support it.
Mate, the M1 doesn't have aftertouch, either, but your term "noodling" is ill-defined.
Well, the M1 most certainly has aftertouch. Maybe you've confused it with polyphonic-aftertouch which it lacks?


BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
you can see, you will not be able to recreate the richness of expression of an MPE controller like the RISE in something like the 30 year old M1.
But that doesn't flow from MPE, it comes from the 5 dimensions of touch, which is my entire point. 5D touch is what matters, MPE is a distraction. They are two separate things but people seem to struggle to separate them.
MPE is 5D, 5D is MPE.
MPE just describes the midi standard that allows everyone to implement 5-Dimensions of touch, introduces some common practices so that we can get some compatibility across applications and plugins.

In Equator standalone, you can select the MPE mode, and the MPE-off mode. The MPE-off mode is the legacy mode, from the time before the MPE standard was born.

In both, the MPE and MPE-off modes you get to play with 5 Dimensions of touch. These are not two separate things.

The term '5D' was coined by ROLI before the MPE standard was born (I know, I was there. Originally it was 3D on the Seaboard GRAND), but before '5D' there was the Haken Continuum which also supported 5 dimensions, but was never even called '5D'.


BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
Not only that, the whole process of setting up the split, dealing with two pedals, assigning them...it's such a palaver, such a heavy workflow, whereas an MPE patch is ready to go!

Where? How do I use MPE with DUNE, Hive, Thorn, ArcSyn or Synthmaster One? Way more "palaver" involved in that.
What do you mean where? In every MPE compatible synth. Please... :?
But even in your short list, you have listed two other MPE compatible synths, Hive (v2) and Synthmaster One.



BONES wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:26 am
himalaya wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:22 am
Well, my mentioning of the 5D arp patches is not to prove that 5D arp patches bring something that you could not program with those motion sequences and p-locks
Why couldn't you? It's just modulation, nothing special.
But it is special. A 5D arp patch is expressive, in realtime, as you play. The key here is the word 'play'.

See, you are getting two different things confused again. I love my Seaboard. It's why I bought a second one but I don't need MPE to thoroughly enjoy the experience of 5D touch because the two things are entirely different. I'd also point out that you could get a lot out of MPE without 5D touch if that's what you are interested in doing because you don't need one to take advantage of the other.
I sincerely do not understand what you mean here. Please can you explain how MPE and 5D are different in terms of expression?
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

himalaya
KVRAF
5166 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Roli Seaboard RISE

Post Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:31 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:47 am
This conversation has been had long ago in this thread. If Bones doesn't understand the benefits of MPE by this point then he never will. More likely though is that independent control per note is not something he finds useful and therefor claims that it's not useful for anyone, which is clearly not true for most other people who use MPE devices. Definitely not worth arguing about though. It's like trying to convince someone that an 8-voice polysynth is useful when they say "But I can just use 8 mono synths. Why would I need to play multiple notes at a time on a single keyboard?".
I think it's worthwhile to have a conversation especially as I see many misconceptions being put forth, and I just want to see if I can help somehow. For example, I know that having polyphonic pitch-bend may not be that attractive to some. I mean, how do you use it in some kind of industrial techno track? It may not require chords with some elaborate pitch bends per note. So...instead of 'pitch', we can control anything else on the BEND dimension. Like I've illustrated several time in my previous posts. Thus, if this misconception can be eliminated, the dimension responsible for poly-pitch will be more more useful to people.

The same with LIFT. It can be very powerful. I need do to more videos on this, I think....
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

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