Roli Seaboard RISE
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
I'd still like to hear from someone who has taken the plunge. Do you feel limited by the two octave range? Is it forcing you to make melodic choices you would not otherwise have done, simply because you can't reach a higher or lower note?
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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- KVRAF
- 5169 posts since 16 Nov, 2014
Thank´s! I have Falcon but it´s to cpu intense to get what i want. Aalto looks interesting. What about Kaivo?thetechnobear wrote:Great to hear that your enjoying it Cinebient, it's hard to explain with words the 'freedom' these controllers give you ... best to try them, but just be prepared to be smitten
On the MPE VST front, if you haven't already, then try Madrona Labs Aalto and UVI Falcon - Aalto is my go to, and Falcon is new, but has potential to be a new workhorse synth for me.
( I've made a list somewhere here on KVR for someone else not too long ago who wanted to know MPE enabled synths , possibly related to bitwig)
Equator goes straight to my favourite synth because the way you add modulation is just so easy and fast and the UI is joy to use. It can get very complex but still everything on one site. Other have more features but they are no fun to use and you have to make a ton of settings to get interesting movements. I just wish the LFO´s could be a lot faster
Since i played Animoog on iPhone and iPad i wanted always this kind of expression also with more powerful synths and tools... now it´s there.... and more... and affordable too for me.
If my healthness will allow me and Roli release a Rise with 49 keywaves, i know what i would buy next!
Let´s just hope that Apple don´t buy them one day
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- KVRAF
- 5169 posts since 16 Nov, 2014
Of course it´s a bit different when i use my 49 or 61 keys master keyboard but then i even sometimes use the 1 1/2 octave macbook keyboard as midi input.deastman wrote:I'd still like to hear from someone who has taken the plunge. Do you feel limited by the two octave range? Is it forcing you to make melodic choices you would not otherwise have done, simply because you can't reach a higher or lower note?
When i want to play huge chords with spreaded octaves i can also hold some keys with the right then turn down (or up) 1-2 octaves and press another chord with the left f.e.
There are some ways to workaround but of course you can´t replace 4,5 or more octaves with 2.
At least for me it doesn´t change what i want to do. In a worst case i have a step more to record. But i´m not a live player, i´m more a composer, producer, sound designer. So for someone who wants to use it much for live gigs or whatever it could be more important.
Just buy 2 and you have 4 octaves
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 868 posts since 2 Jan, 2013
Roli have not released Equator outside of seaboard owners yet, so I don't have it... but does look quite nice.Cinebient wrote:Thank´s! I have Falcon but it´s to cpu intense to get what i want. Aalto looks interesting. What about Kaivo?thetechnobear wrote:Great to hear that your enjoying it Cinebient, it's hard to explain with words the 'freedom' these controllers give you ... best to try them, but just be prepared to be smitten
On the MPE VST front, if you haven't already, then try Madrona Labs Aalto and UVI Falcon - Aalto is my go to, and Falcon is new, but has potential to be a new workhorse synth for me.
( I've made a list somewhere here on KVR for someone else not too long ago who wanted to know MPE enabled synths , possibly related to bitwig)
Equator goes straight to my favourite synth because the way you add modulation is just so easy and fast and the UI is joy to use. It can get very complex but still everything on one site. Other have more features but they are no fun to use and you have to make a ton of settings to get interesting movements. I just wish the LFO´s could be a lot faster
Kaivo is good too, but for me a bit harder to get the sounds I like... but really depends what you are looking for. Both Aalto and Kaivo have demos, so you can try them out...
(btw, in the past madrona labs have had a 'winter sale' in early december , not announced one yet, but might be worth watching out for one if you like the demos)
Falcon cpu intense, really... its pretty good for me, but i guess depends on your setup etc.
talking of cpu, one thing, Ive found with the Soundplane/Eigenharp is often simpler patches can be quite effective, as your expression is adding the 'movement' into the sound, adding to much I sometimes fine becomes a bit overpowering, and less complexity = low cpu...
... but again, depends what sound you are after of course
(of course the other synths are U-he diva/ace/bazille/hive... they dont support MPE, but do support voice per channel... so if you have these, check them out)
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hyperscientist hyperscientist https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=352722
- KVRist
- 74 posts since 2 Mar, 2015
I'm an owner of RISE and let me put it this way: Seaboard is not a keyboard and thus your question is sort of irrelevant as it is kind of like asking whether a guitar is limiting in comparison to a grand piano.deastman wrote:I'd still like to hear from someone who has taken the plunge. Do you feel limited by the two octave range? Is it forcing you to make melodic choices you would not otherwise have done, simply because you can't reach a higher or lower note?
ROLI tries to market this thing as sort of a Haken Continuum for the masses as it is supposedly easier to get a handle on, but I don't think it is the case.
Seaboard for me (I only played piano before) is a completely new instrument - you play it completely different way - the only similarity is the layout of keys, but the feel, the way you use those keys, everything about it is just different.
And it's not only about hardware - each sound is very different. Each sound is like a new instrument - you need to spend some time to get a feel of the seaboard for every given sound - you need to adjust the way you hit and press those keys, you use different gestures (or the same gestures but in a slightly different way).
As soon as you will inevitably try to play some of the piano pieces you like you will obviously hit the limitations, but you won't be doing that too much, because you will soon realise that it's not a piano and that it doesn't make any sense.
Just think of it as a distinctive instrument that just happens to have 25 keys. It's not limiting - it's just the way things are here.
Also, I doubt you will be playing seriously wide chords with this thing, because this way you would not be able to handle all the pressure sensitivity and you could just as well (better actually) play it on your regular piano keyboard. The reason is that it's mind-bending enough to consciously control 3 keys at the same time (remembers - it's 5 dimensions total including strike and lift and 3 dimensions while the key is pressed).
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
Okay, fair enough. But if I'm not using it as some version of a traditional piano keyboard, I have to start comparing it to Linnstrument, which had more keys. I was attracted to the Seaboard because it could leverage my piano skills, knowing that I'll never develop that kind of two-handed technique on Linnstrument. But if I should only look at it as a one-handed or lead instrument, that piano keyboard familiarity isn't much of an advantage. Of course there is still a significant price difference, but again, you're getting a lot more keys for that money.hyperscientist wrote:I'm an owner of RISE and let me put it this way: Seaboard is not a keyboard and thus your question is sort of irrelevant as it is kind of like asking whether a guitar is limiting in comparison to a grand piano.deastman wrote:I'd still like to hear from someone who has taken the plunge. Do you feel limited by the two octave range? Is it forcing you to make melodic choices you would not otherwise have done, simply because you can't reach a higher or lower note?
ROLI tries to market this thing as sort of a Haken Continuum for the masses as it is supposedly easier to get a handle on, but I don't think it is the case.
Seaboard for me (I only played piano before) is a completely new instrument - you play it completely different way - the only similarity is the layout of keys, but the feel, the way you use those keys, everything about it is just different.
And it's not only about hardware - each sound is very different. Each sound is like a new instrument - you need to spend some time to get a feel of the seaboard for every given sound - you need to adjust the way you hit and press those keys, you use different gestures (or the same gestures but in a slightly different way).
As soon as you will inevitably try to play some of the piano pieces you like you will obviously hit the limitations, but you won't be doing that too much, because you will soon realise that it's not a piano and that it doesn't make any sense.
Just think of it as a distinctive instrument that just happens to have 25 keys. It's not limiting - it's just the way things are here.
Also, I doubt you will be playing seriously wide chords with this thing, because this way you would not be able to handle all the pressure sensitivity and you could just as well (better actually) play it on your regular piano keyboard. The reason is that it's mind-bending enough to consciously control 3 keys at the same time (remembers - it's 5 dimensions total including strike and lift and 3 dimensions while the key is pressed).
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
- GRRRRRRR!
- 15844 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle
I would be extremely surprised if you could even come close to the expressive possibilities of this thing on a stupid hard touchscreen. Velocity or aftertouch are going to work way, way better on something like this than on an iPad and the Rise also has multiple controllers on the LHS which add significantly to it's expressive possibilities.Cinebient wrote:Thank's..... then sadly this is still too limited for me for what i'm searching
If i can't use the X,Y and Z achsis at the same time i can do still more expressive play with my iPad.
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.
- GRRRRRRR!
- 15844 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle
What's wrong with their GRAND?deastman wrote:I really hope they come out with a RISE model that has more octaves soon. A four or five octave model in a price range comparable to the Linnstrument would be fantastic.
You can transpose octaves on the fly easily enough. I only find two octaves limiting when playing some chords, most of the time it's fine.deastman wrote:I'd still like to hear from someone who has taken the plunge. Do you feel limited by the two octave range? Is it forcing you to make melodic choices you would not otherwise have done, simply because you can't reach a higher or lower note?
NOVAkILL : Asus RoG Flow Z13, Core i9, 16GB RAM, Win11 | EVO 16 | Studio One | bx_oberhausen, GR-8, JP6K, Union, Hexeract, Olga, TRK-01, SEM, BA-1, Thorn, Prestige, Spire, Legend-HZ, ANA-2, VG Iron 2 | Uno Pro, Rocket.
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- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
The problem with the GRAND is that it costs a bazillion dollars. As I understand it, the whole original series is hand built by Roli, while the RISE was redesigned for more scalable production runs. That is part of why the price of the RISE is so much less, along with the lack of a built-in sound engine. (Someone from Roli, please feel free to jump in here if I'm mistaken!) And the RISE is actually a better design in terms of the texture, the shape of the waves, and the left hand sensitivity sliders.BONES wrote:What's wrong with their GRAND?deastman wrote:I really hope they come out with a RISE model that has more octaves soon. A four or five octave model in a price range comparable to the Linnstrument would be fantastic.You can transpose octaves on the fly easily enough. I only find two octaves limiting when playing some chords, most of the time it's fine.deastman wrote:I'd still like to hear from someone who has taken the plunge. Do you feel limited by the two octave range? Is it forcing you to make melodic choices you would not otherwise have done, simply because you can't reach a higher or lower note?
EDIT: Nice to see you posting again, by the way!
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
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hyperscientist hyperscientist https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=352722
- KVRist
- 74 posts since 2 Mar, 2015
Well, technique do translates. Fingering techniques for passages or solos stay mostly the same (it changes slightly as seaboard is kind of "slower" surface and also requires more precision when glide setting is sensitive), ability jump between chords at high tempo, ability to play with your eyes closed and general feel of the keyboard layout - it all stays.deastman wrote:I was attracted to the Seaboard because it could leverage my piano skills, knowing that I'll never develop that kind of two-handed technique on Linnstrument.
So piano keyboard familiarity does give you some advantage. It is impossible for me to say how much of an advantage that is though.
It definitely is not just one-handed instrument. Using two hands will give you vastly more control over what you are doing with the sound. Even if on a regular piano you would just use your Rachmaninoff's hands to play some humongous wide chords it doesn't make much sense here as surely one hand will not give you so much control over individual notes where you may want to exploit aftertouch, slide or glide.deastman wrote:But if I should only look at it as a one-handed or lead instrument, that piano keyboard familiarity isn't much of an advantage.
Some advantage of Seaboard over LinnStrument to consider would be the gentle soft surface for percussive instruments. The surface is kind of like playing an MPC - very nice feeling. Again, being able to use two hands for percussive is also important.
Having said all that… I'm not trying to convince you to buy RISE and especially not if you consider Linnstrument over RISE as I have never seen linnstrument live. Surely not everyone will be happy with it, especially that it still has some rough edges to it (being such young technology). I'm just trying to answer your questions.
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- KVRAF
- 5169 posts since 16 Nov, 2014
Now that i have one i agree but you can get the same amount of expression on a touch screen and even more (like using gyroscope and other sensors etc.). Of course the tactile feedback is the main part which makes the Seaboard so great.BONES wrote:I would be extremely surprised if you could even come close to the expressive possibilities of this thing on a stupid hard touchscreen. Velocity or aftertouch are going to work way, way better on something like this than on an iPad and the Rise also has multiple controllers on the LHS which add significantly to it's expressive possibilities.Cinebient wrote:Thank's..... then sadly this is still too limited for me for what i'm searching
If i can't use the X,Y and Z achsis at the same time i can do still more expressive play with my iPad.
The touchscreens have the big plus that it´s easy to map your scales, split, midi cc, size of keys.... whatever to your likes. Diagonal X/Y movements works better on a flat design too. But i still like using a normal midi keyboard, a touch screen and now a Seaboard Rise. None of these things can replace another. They all are just different kind of inputs while they share a few things sometimes.
What i miss in the Seaboard Rise (and the Dashboard) is a more flexible setting. Custom scales and even microtuning inside the Seaboard software itself would be great instead of doing it in a DAW or midi FX. I also would like to could change the midi cc, aftertouch and glide for my own needs. F.e. the slide is a fixed midi cc74. What if i want to change it?
Software on a touch screen is still a lot more flexible but the combination of the Rise and synths like the Equator are really the best thing happend ever for me and i finally sold my iPad and use just my iPhone 5 here and there for my iOS gems.
Sure one day we have controllers which can transform from flat into tactile devices of choice. The Seaboards are just the beginning
Most important is that i really hope that MPE midi will be a new standard since it makes a huge different!!!
- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 868 posts since 2 Jan, 2013
Cinebient wrote: The touchscreens have the big plus that it´s easy to map your scales, split, midi cc, size of keys.... whatever to your likes. Diagonal X/Y movements works better on a flat design too. But i still like using a normal midi keyboard, a touch screen and now a Seaboard Rise. None of these things can replace another. They all are just different kind of inputs while they share a few things sometimes.
What i miss in the Seaboard Rise (and the Dashboard) is a more flexible setting. Custom scales and even microtuning inside the Seaboard software itself would be great instead of doing it in a DAW or midi FX. I also would like to could change the midi cc, aftertouch and glide for my own needs. F.e. the slide is a fixed midi cc74. What if i want to change it?
I think the RISE supports changing slide to other CC, multichannel mode? this is used with others synths e.g. u-he (MPE is really a simplified form of voice per channel midi)
as for flexibility... well thats the rub or a keyboard vs grid layout.
I think... its not as 'open', how to do you map microtones or a non-12 note scale to a form factor that has divisions.
this is why I chose the Soundplane, its fully continuous surface x/y/z the 'grid' is just a reference point. this means you can distribute scales, other controls however you wish over it.
(the Linnstrument is similar, but a bit more restrictive, due to lack of continuity in the Y axis)
don't get me wrong, on the flip side, the keyboard form factor gives keyboard players a big head start when using the 12 note chromatic scale... and for many, this is all they need.
as (I think) I pointed out before these controllers are all different, not better/worst... they just have different characteristics which lend themselves to slightly different uses, its also what makes them feel like different instruments.
Note: there are some interesting questions, when sliding over non-chromatic scales, which is why continuous surfaces usually only offer chromatic quantising, or to turn it off. but a bit off-topic to discuss this now
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- KVRAF
- 5169 posts since 16 Nov, 2014
Now that i have also the iPhone version i can def. say that diagonal slides (X and Y axis at the same time with one note) works much better on a flat device. When you now try to add pressure on top it´s hard to do it as fast on the silicon for me.
The seaboard rise is an awesome contoller but when i could get this software on an iPad Pro with 3d touch (maybe next year with the second generation) it would be even more expressive for me to play
As great the tactile feedback is with the keywaves, it is not really possible to do really fast slides of X, Y and Z axis with one note without it retriggers often. I´m not an experienced player so for me there is no much different between a tactile feedback or the great visual feedback i get on those multi touch devices.
However, Roli did again a great job. Thank´s!
The seaboard rise is an awesome contoller but when i could get this software on an iPad Pro with 3d touch (maybe next year with the second generation) it would be even more expressive for me to play
As great the tactile feedback is with the keywaves, it is not really possible to do really fast slides of X, Y and Z axis with one note without it retriggers often. I´m not an experienced player so for me there is no much different between a tactile feedback or the great visual feedback i get on those multi touch devices.
However, Roli did again a great job. Thank´s!
- KVRAF
- 6113 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America
I'm loving my iPad Pro so far, but it's still not a replacement for a physical and tactile keyboard (music or typing). Touch screen is a convenient device that allows for a lot of variability, but tactility is a hugely important thing it will never have. I can type on it for a few sentences, but then I just want physical keys. Same for the music control. It's fun for limited moments of recording expressive bits that you carefully watch your hands on, but still needs a hardware controller for long periods of playing regular parts (I'm not a "proper" keyboardist, either, so it really does matter for those who are). Basically: If I can't feel my way around by touch, I can't really stay with it for long.
Traditional MIDI keys lack the expressiveness potential of things like the Rise, justifying the existence of the Rise. I see the Rise as a "proper" expression device and a touch screen as a compromise (for those of us wanting extra expression we can't create on our standard keys).
Traditional MIDI keys lack the expressiveness potential of things like the Rise, justifying the existence of the Rise. I see the Rise as a "proper" expression device and a touch screen as a compromise (for those of us wanting extra expression we can't create on our standard keys).
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
my music @ SoundCloud