universal hardware VST controller

[basa333]

in my opinion is software more important. mapping in some daws kann be a nightmare.

[Ah_Dziz]

My Nektor P6 seems like it maps stuff extremely well. I don’t really use that sort of thing though. I like using the “quick controls” in cubase as that will generally give me as much as I need for any real-time tweaking I need to do. So I went out and bought the “Steinberg quick controller” usb controller. Outside of that, I prefer a mouse for sound design and such.
If you really want “full control” of most software synths, I would get ready for a crazy amount of customizing and editing to get the controls where you want them. I would also recommend grabbing a nice little stand alone synth for full hands on control. As long as it has cc outs through the midi port for each knob and controller, then you can use it as a template for whatever type of host based automation via midi you have in your daw.

[bmanic]

My main issue is still with basic MIDI resolution. I'm absolutely dumbfounded by the fact that so few support Open Sound Control. It's the best system for controlling things and has massive resolution. It's also ridiculously flexible yet extremely easy to parse the code (in my opinion).

OSC should be ruling the world by now but no.. sigh..

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Unfortunately, the best standard seldom wins. There's a chicken and egg thing right? Few OSC controllers, few OSC compatible DAWs. I think MIDI will continue to be standard, and I only hope that with MIDI 2.0 being formally ratified, we'll see higher resolution MIDI controllers in the future that are actually widely supported. Manufacturers and DAW makers are already on board with MIDI so hopefully they'll take the steps necessary to move onto some of the new features of MIDI 2.0 (or even things like 14bit CCs which have been around for ages and still not widely used) and move the controller landscape forward.

[Forgotten]

I usually create music in a sofa

[vurt]

after seeing under the cushions on mine in my recent tidy, i will not be trying that

[SparkySpark]

I usually create music in a sofa

Exactly like that, I just usually have less clothes on.

[acYm]

(1)Unless your needs are very basic, the pathetic 8 knob layouts used by most controllers will provide you with a bad experience. The phrase "painting the hallway through the letterbox" comes to mind. Indeed, it's so bad that I would tell most people to simply give up and buy hardware synths if you actually want hands on control. The more who do that, the harder it'll get for the likes of NI to shovel this crap on us.

(2)Obviously you'd want software which has MIDI learn. If you're prepared to put in some effort then the best mapping experience is actually delivered via your DAW's host automation, but only a limited number of controllers support this. The best of these was probably the Novation Remote series (up until the MKII). Their main flaw is they require a plugin wrapper, and Novation have pretty much given up on software (outside of Ableton etc) with the MKIII, and is now catering more towards the hardware side of things.

1: it's not, it's a great experience, once you're used to it. 8 knobs + 8 buttons = 64 knobs and 64 buttons accessible directly, switching is very fast, you can jump directly to a section. this covers the vast majority of fx vst's, and most soft synths that aren't huge workstations, i.e. most analog-types. believe me or not but I'm just as fast as anyone with any full panel at making patches from scratch - if not faster.

2: it's not a "flaw", it's literally the ONLY way. MIDI is 100% useless: to have a usable universal controller, it needs to display the actual values of the parameter, which only automation can provide.

[PAK]

it's not, it's a great experience, once you're used to it. 8 knobs + 8 buttons = 64 knobs and 64 buttons accessible directly, switching is very fast, you can jump directly to a section.

That's an 8 button paging system. Now say you want to do something unthinkable - like tweak the filter cutoff -whilst- adjusting the two ADSR envelopes simultaneously. That "back and forth" button solution you're advocating is going to get tiring fast, and is indeed extremely poor in such basic (and common) editing scenarios IMO. You're going to give up and resort to using the mouse pretty fast. It's far better to use something which provides a sufficient number of controls to begin with.

To allow virtual instruments, to properly compete with dedicated hardware, generic controllers need to expand / replace such paging systems with a flexible way to define both buttons and the controls they change. For example, iirc, Diva requires 12 buttons and 10 knobs to map its FX, so that any FX control is within 1 button push. That's already more controls than these 8 knob systems provide, and that's just for the FX section! So the problem isn't just about having a large enough amount of controls to enable such things, but also more advanced mapping logic to use alongside the increased number of controls.

But, hey, if you're happy to be limited to 8 controls/buttons then great! I think many people find such systems a poor alternative to a more "1:1" experience (where more controls are directly exposed on the hardware interface.)

2: it's not a "flaw", it's literally the ONLY way. MIDI is 100% useless: to have a usable universal controller, it needs to display the actual values of the parameter, which only automation can provide.

IIRC Nektar uses the Mackie control protocol as their way to work around the limitations, so not the "only" way. But the whole wider sentiment was about why things like wrappers were even necessary in the first place, and the wider failure to better meet the needs of virtual instruments. Instead we're stuck with a protocol which can't even get basics like note timing right, "controllers" with paltry amounts of controls, very limited mapping logic, and 7-bit resolution.

[acYm]

so, in the Kore world, there's what we call Easy Access pages, typically there's one or two of them per vst, and these have the purpose of facilitating such things as tweaking the filter and its envelope on the same page for example, whereas on the full template these would be in two sections next to each other. these are how you can "go Vangelis" on your synth, all the "VIP" knobs are there. what you gotta realize is that hitting the down/up arrow with your thumb to cycle around (or jumping as well) actually takes less time that moving your arm over a full panel.

hey don't get me wrong, would I prefer 10 knobs instead of 8, sure, sections with 9 or 10 knobs are the bane of my existence as a kore template maker. it means you need to find space on a neighboring page to fit them in, where it's not gonna be bothersome, sometimes that's a challenge. BUT, in general, the vast majority of cases, it's fine.
in fact, it is more common to be able to fit two sections within a page than to see a section that can't fit.

mackie control is somewhere in between "dumb MIDI" and Kore/Automap, that's true. I believe it's a shame it's not getting more support, it's a good protocol, it's just old. I made a good MCU midi template for Live with Kore and it pretty much replaces the 8 knobs I don't have on my launchpad pro compared to a Push (to an extent, and except the display of course).

I'm not gonna pretend every VST is a good canditate for a Kore-style host, that's not the case. I gave up mapping Bazille, too big a headache. Diva I'm not even attempting it. but if we're talking about the likes of Monark, Tal-u-no-LX, SEM V2, impOSCar, or even something a bit bigger like Thorn, ACE or Hive2, in the case of well-made vst's like these with 100% (or close to) of parameters available to automation, it's simply excellent, and it's the best way to use these VST's - it's exactly like the Elektron workflow.

look up the "do I need hardware" thread by jace-beos, I posted pictures of a nice Kore chain, tell me that's not sexy.

[phreaque]

Electra One, Open-Source MIDI Controller For Hardware & Software: Control Everything In The Studio & Live
Features At A Glance

[*] Capacitive touch 7″ LCD with 1024×600 resolution
[*] 12 high-resolution (256 values per revolution) aluminum touch-sensitive knobs
[*] 2 standard MIDI IN/OUT ports
[*] USB MIDI class-compliant device with two individual MIDI ports (virtual cables)
[*] USB Host interface for MIDI class-compliant devices, up to 2 devices can be connected
[*] Web-based platform for creating, editing, and sharing presets
[*] Support of Control change, Program Change, Start, Stop, NRNP MIDI messages
[*] Support of proprietary SysEx MIDI messages (currently Rhodes Chroma, Yamaha DX7, Roland TB3 are supported)
[*] Sturdy aluminum enclosure
[*] Dimensions 206 x 190 x 38

http://www.synthanatomy.com/2019/08/ele ... 7iOv_57v3s

Configuring the knobs!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCNNBGlKa8I

[PAK]

Easy Access pages, typically there's one or two of them per vst, and these have the purpose of facilitating such things as tweaking the filter and its envelope on the same page for example

Ok. Now say you want to do the same but with OSC2 and the ADSR's. The point is that control page has to be edited to accomodate or you'll be subjected to the back and forth system. Even simple scenarios like these also don't fit into an 8 control limitation without paging.

An 8x8 matrix is simply not capable of mapping anything but the simplest of synths. Increase the number of controls substantially, though, and medium complexity synths (Diva etc) will start to map really well - even within the limits of their present page system. It still leaves a category (synths like HALion etc ..ie anything with more complex modular layouts) which won't be possible to fully map without a huge overhaul in how all this stuff is handled. But, the point is, it would be able to map most synths great, and not just simple synths and FX.

Let's go with what we already have and imagine, for a second, Native Instruments take the 88 key version of their controller and use all that empty panel space to do a premium edition. Something which gives you 48 knobs and 16 sliders, each with their own button. If you think this is a lot go and count the amount of controls on a DSI product like the Prophet 12.

Even with a basic 8 page system, that's 512 parameters within 1 button push. C'mon.. you'd stick with your 8 knobs if they actually built something like that?! It'd be amazing. It'd be expensive. It'd transform the virtual instrument landscape, in terms of hardware interfacing.

Given the rising challenge of affordable hardware, with 1:1 interfaces, we've now got a generation of users who are going to contrast those experiences with software. Software needs to step up its hardware game to remain relevant in such scenarios, IMO.

Diva I'm not even attempting it.

You would if you had hardware which was up to the task. I can -fully- automate Diva quite well using Automap. The Remote SL surface is 16 knobs and 8 sliders (24 controls), and it gives decent control over how automation values are incremented etc.

The "but" is, beyond plugin wrapping, Novation used a 2 button up/down system for the pages which (if you stick to sensible control layouts) means you're forced to scroll through pages (more than a dozen if you fully automate Diva using sensible layouts). If you had a dozen page buttons, as with NI, you'd be able to jump to the sections you needed instantly. It's very frustrating to get products like these which are so near, and yet miss the few basics which would've transformed the product. NI then appear to "get" this, and give you more page buttons, but then cripple things with the amount of physical controls! Ugh..

[PAK]

Electra One, Open-Source MIDI Controller For Hardware & Software: Control Everything In The Studio & Live

It looks interesting, and it's nice to see 8 bit controls being used. But a touch screen and features still doesn't change that there's only 12 knobs. Even cheap 24 knob, 8 slider controllers, will beat it on usability in a lot of scenarios, IMO.

We're in the virtual synth equivalent of being stuck using the rack versions of synths! No amount of logic will replace the fact that the less controls you have, the more you move away from a 1:1 interface experience many people prefer.

[phreaque]

It looks interesting, and it's nice to see 8 bit controls being used. But a touch screen and features still doesn't change that there's only 12 knobs. Even cheap 24 knob, 8 slider controllers, will beat it on usability in a lot of scenarios, IMO.

We're in the virtual synth equivalent of being stuck using the rack versions of synths! No amount of logic will replace the fact that the less controls you have, the more you move away from a 1:1 interface experience many people prefer.

It's an open source controller, check the editor of it, the screen can work anything you want.

[PAK]

It's an open source controller, check the editor of it, the screen can work anything you want.

Yep. But, even if open source, it's not exactly easy for the average person to build an expanded control surface.. However, it does get something important right.. It can chain devices to expand (do you know the maximum it supports? ).

When replicated across multiple surfaces that screen area is perhaps not the best use of space though, and a lot would depend on how it integrated more than one device into a single "supersurface".

Which is all a moot point since, without a system to work around the limitations of MIDI and use DAW automation (Automap wrapper, or Nektar with the Mackie protocol etc) it's ultimately somewhat limited in its abilities as a virtual instrument controller.