Which drum synth do you recommend

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sfd wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:28 pm @ghettosynth Not sure I understand what you're saying.
First, Stix is fine for that limited kind of drum synthesis. It's hardly unique mind you and IMO doesn't really stand out in terms of sound over other similar drum synths.

But, I'm particularly criticizing this assertion that its constrained randomization is somehow particularly interesting or intelligent, it's certainly not unique. ANY, and I mean ANY Reaktor ensemble that has the different voices separated by (Reaktor) instrument can do this on a completely different scale. You can morph between presets, generate random new sounds, entire new kits, entire new kits with constrained randomness, I could go on. This doesn't even have to built into the ensemble, it's a part of Reaktor and has been so since at least V5.0 going way back to 2006/2007 or so.

The Reaktor Rythmmaker ensemble will create sounds very similar to what I saw in that video. If you want ZDF filters, just drop them in. Rhythmmaker doesn't have ZDF filters because it also goes back to R5, probably earlier.

Randomness is useful, but a new kit "at the press of a button" is more quaint than anything else. It's an uninteresting implementation of patch randomness. As I said in my first post, which I think was clear, I think that it's overrated.

Second, my suggestion is to break free of this idea that there's any such thing as a useful all in one drum synth, particularly with sequencer, that doesn't also load other synthesizers. Maschine is absolutely the best example that I can think of, but, I'm sure that there are other similarly styled workstation plugins that are also themselves plugin hosts.

By being able to load other synth plugins on a pad/note then you free yourself from the constraints imposed by someone's attempt to put what doesn't need to be in one plugin into one plugin. You can combine FM, Physical Modeling, sampling, or anything else into your drum kit.
But if you're happy with what you got that's great. For anyone else asking for a good drum-synth I recommend STIX.
You're repeating yourself. Let me be clear, I'm criticizing your recommendation for specific reasons. Other people can read my reasons and decide if they still want to shell out a couple of C-notes or not for Stix. I'm not really talking to you, since you like it and all. Sounds like you're happy with what you've found and aren't really interested in looking at the question deeper, so your job is done here, no?

If people likes it or not is up to them. But that's my recommendation.
I think that's clear.

Anyway, I would completely avoid any simplistic drum synth like Stix or Model 500. There's nothing there that isn't already in other synths. I think that Arturia tried to create a decent take on the idea with Spark, but with the proliferation of modular plugins I think that even that is supplanted by newer synths.

Ableton does a great job with Drumracks which allow you to combine existing synths with samplers, similarly, Reason's Combinators also allow a similar approach.

So my advice is to focus on synths that do a great job of synthesizing the type of sounds that you're looking for. If you want physically modeled sounds then synths like Chromaphone are great. For a lot of sounds that are done with generic percussion synths you only need either a good VA synth or a good FM synth. For acoustic sounds, a flexible sampler. For things like X0X hihats, you only need something that can parallel six to eight tuned oscillators. Again, any modern FM synth will give you this. If you don't want to futz with that detail, then plugins like Stix will give you that kind of synthesis (I think, I havn't looked at Stix's hi-hat model), but, IMO, you're better off with a modern modular framework that has those sounds in a module, i.e., pretty much any of them.

My first choice for all of this is Reaktor, in particular, Komplete because it covers all of that ground excellently. Synths like Ace and Bazille can really give you great percussion sounds as well.

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Reaktor 5 is perfectly capable of delivering zdf filter , because --->core
Eyeball exchanging
Soul calibrating ..frequencies

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gentleclockdivider wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:12 pm Reaktor 5 is perfectly capable of delivering zdf filter , because --->core
Yes, absolutely. That wasn't my point, I was saying that the Rythmmaker ensemble doesn't have them because it goes back to a time when ZDF filters were not a standard part of Reaktor. I can't recall if there were any in R5.0, but I don't think that there were. R5 had oversampled filters in the factory (core) library.

But still,the primary filters were still used quite extensively in the factor ensembles in R5.

But Rhythmaker goes back much further. Looking at the info page it was done in 2003 by Lazyfish. So it was probably a part of the R4 library prior to the inclusion of core in R5.

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I agree that something like Drumracks is a boon for programming drum sounds. Like you said, it allows you to use everything at your disposal to get exactly what you want. Also agree that drum synths with one generic "engine" (like the drum-synth-now-named-one-too-many-times ;)) aren't really cutting it - you may just as well use a drumrack with Operator in each pad (I use Live as an example because it's what I'm most familiar with).
However, I don't agree that "regular" synths are always better than a dedicated drum synth. If you look at classic ways to create certain drum sounds, you'll see that a variety of different topologies are used to get there. Can you recreate those in non-drum specific synths? Sure, and the great thing is, you can even expand on these topologies. But from a workflow perspective it's miles more convenient to have a drum synth that puts all these parameters right in front of you without you having to patch it all up. Besides, some drum synth techniques are a tad elaborate and require quite a complex synth to recreate. Even something as silly as a snare usually has a sine and noise, each with their own amplitude envelope and a bandpass just for the noise with another envelope. Hihats require (if I'm not mistaken) a pulse wave which has feedback FM and a series of bandpass filters. Again, yes, these things can be made in many regular synths, but I'd hate to give up an interface that is designed to present me with these different topologies for me to tweak right away. Also, it would be a bit of overkill to use 16 instances of, say, Zebra, to generate run off the mill drum sounds.

Unfortunately, most drum synths utilise only one type of topology, some more flexible/tailored to drum sounds than others. So yeah... there's that.

YMMV and all that of course :)

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BDeep wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:30 pm I agree that something like Drumracks is a boon for programming drum sounds. Like you said, it allows you to use everything at your disposal to get exactly what you want. Also agree that drum synths with one generic "engine" (like the drum-synth-now-named-one-too-many-times ;)) aren't really cutting it - you may just as well use a drumrack with Operator in each pad (I use Live as an example because it's what I'm most familiar with).
However, I don't agree that "regular" synths are always better than a dedicated drum synth.
I didn't say that. I said "So my advice is to focus on synths that do a great job of synthesizing the type of sounds that you're looking for."

If that's X0X sounds, then by all means, focus on that. My argument with respect to these all in one drum synths like Tremor et al is that they are now easily replaced by modular synths.
If you look at classic ways to create certain drum sounds, you'll see that a variety of different topologies are used to get there. Can you recreate those in non-drum specific synths? Sure, and the great thing is, you can even expand on these topologies. But from a workflow perspective it's miles more convenient to have a drum synth that puts all these parameters right in front of you without you having to patch it all up. Besides, some drum synth techniques are a tad elaborate and require quite a complex synth to recreate. Even something as silly as a snare usually has a sine and noise, each with their own amplitude envelope and a bandpass just for the noise with another envelope. Hihats require (if I'm not mistaken) a pulse wave which has feedback FM and a series of bandpass filters.
Yes, that's right, I jumped the gun there. You can't just use any FM synth, you have to have one that can generate pulse waves to implement the X0X basic topology. You don't need much more than that, a highpass and that's pretty much the 606/808 sound.

https://www.native-instruments.com/de/r ... show/8385/

How many variants of that does one need?

Of course, every FM synth in existence has hi-hat presets that use FM modulation to achieve a similar sound.
Again, yes, these things can be made in many regular synths, but I'd hate to give up an interface that is designed to present me with these different topologies for me to tweak right away. Also, it would be a bit of overkill to use 16 instances of, say, Zebra, to generate run off the mill drum sounds.
Right, all true. If you go back a few pages you'll see that I recommend things like TrK01 for bass drums. Everything that you describe has been done already in either a softube modular modle, a blocks module, a VCV rack module, or, e.g., just pure Reaktor. There are also numerous drum only single or multi voice synths, some have been suggested here. I'm saying that you should combine all of these in a container that allows that and that there's not much need for an all encompassing drum synth with sequencer

However, even above I say: "If you don't want to futz with that detail, then plugins like Stix will give you that kind of synthesis (I think, I havn't looked at Stix's hi-hat model), but, IMO, you're better off with a modern modular framework that has those sounds in a module, i.e., pretty much any of them. " Which pretty much covers your entire post, no? If you want an easy U/I for X0X drum sounds, let's not tart that up with too much discussion of "topology" then just use a synth that does that.

Finally, if you using Ableton or Reason, or Maschine, you can just put the controls you want access too behind an instrument rack, which you then drop into your drum rack. Newsflash, someone's already done all of that for you for the most part.

In other words, the only reason to recommend a drum specific synth is exactly because the topology that's modeled is interesting and stands out above what is already available. I get the sense, however, that people think just putting some x0x synths into a single plugin is going to bring some new magic.
Unfortunately, most drum synths utilise only one type of topology, some more flexible/tailored to drum sounds than others. So yeah... there's that.

YMMV and all that of course :)
Exactly.

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ghettosynth wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:57 pm My argument with respect to these all in one drum synths like Tremor et al is that they are now easily replaced by modular synths.
Ok, say we run with the idea of not using 1 dedicated drum synth but combining different sources into an Ableton drum rack.
How about the sequencer? I love the Tremor sequencer.
It has 8 lanes of 32 steps, polyrhythm, probability, repeats (and velocity) all in a convenient sequencer.
I looked around but haven't found a seperate sequencer like that (software).
Anybody knows a separate sequencer that can math the one from Tremor?

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Seems to be a bit off topic here. Typical KVR thread, disintegrating into 2 people arguing the toss :roll:
I wonder what happens if I press this button...

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Stefken wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:31 am
ghettosynth wrote: Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:57 pm My argument with respect to these all in one drum synths like Tremor et al is that they are now easily replaced by modular synths.
Ok, say we run with the idea of not using 1 dedicated drum synth but combining different sources into an Ableton drum rack.
How about the sequencer? I love the Tremor sequencer.
It has 8 lanes of 32 steps, polyrhythm, probability, repeats (and velocity) all in a convenient sequencer.
I looked around but haven't found a seperate sequencer like that (software).
Anybody knows a separate sequencer that can math the one from Tremor?
Totally fair point, of course, Tremor is now unsupportedware. Also, this thread is which "drum synth" do you recommend. I also liked the sequencer in Tremor and almost purchased Tremor for that. However, you're still stuck with a limited sound palette unless the plugin generates midi, which Tremor does, so what's the question again? To be fair here though, I think that Tremor still stands out among that style of drum synth/sequencers. I'm not sure why FXpansion dropped it, it's not worth the current price of $149 to me though.

I think which drum sequencer is a totally different question. Like drum synths, I prefer not to use just one which again argues for having drum sounds from different sources. Reaktor is still my number one source for weird sequencers, but I do the vast majority of step sequencing in maschine because the hardware makes it so immediate. I really like Reason's player drum sequencer and I suppose it would be great to have that in a plugin.

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ramseysounds wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:15 am Seems to be a bit off topic here. Typical KVR thread, disintegrating into 2 people arguing the toss :roll:
I think it's more interesting than dozens of people just throwing out the same list of plugins that you can find with a google search.

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ghettosynth wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:32 amI think that Tremor still stands out among that style of drum synth/sequencers. I'm not sure why FXpansion dropped it.
Geist 3 :shrug:

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el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:42 am Geist 3 :shrug:
Heh. Don't hold your breath.

If the Props ever released Kong as a VSTi, I'd bite their arm off. Samples, modelling (well...), synthesized drums, REX, FX. It's got a lot going for it, though it could do with a refresh. As things stand, it's a PITA to use via Rewire to Reaper, and a non-starter in Bitwig :(

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ghettosynth wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:32 am I also liked the sequencer in Tremor and almost purchased Tremor for that. However, you're still stuck with a limited sound palette unless the plugin generates midi, which Tremor does, so what's the question again?
I guess the question is: is there a dedicated software sequencer like Tremor's out there which is supported and somewhat cheaper. (I'm running the demo of Tremor). Tremor is in an akward zone. It's great but it's not cheap and unsupported. Why they dropped a quality product like this, is beyond me. :dog:

ghettosynth wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:32 am I think which drum sequencer is a totally different question.
It's certainly a related question. Like you said, you almost bought Tremor just for the sequencer. And as we have very knowledgeable people participating is this thread, I asked this related question.
People who know their drums will most likely also know their drum sequencers. :wink:

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@ghettosynth I don't have any issues with you expressing your understanding ( and thereby following opinions) of STIX·

The plug.in and it's manual is there.

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neverbeeninariot wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:04 am
el-bo (formerly ebow) wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:42 am Geist 3 :shrug:
Heh. Don't hold your breath.
Why would I hold my breath? I doubt it's going to be out in the next 40 seconds :shrug:

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ghettosynth wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:35 am
ramseysounds wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:15 am Seems to be a bit off topic here. Typical KVR thread, disintegrating into 2 people arguing the toss :roll:
I think it's more interesting than dozens of people just throwing out the same list of plugins that you can find with a google search.
you would because you're one of the two. There's debate and there's argue. Anyway, not getting drawn into it. Doh :dog:
I wonder what happens if I press this button...

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