IK Multimedia releases MODO DRUM

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

https://youtu.be/nuQuHSoGXfU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glhqqjHV8jQ

and a host of great videos that don't seem to show a lack of layers here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPWcn8r ... 3VdFDCKMI0

[wagtunes]

Okay, hold the phone.

Are we talking infinite velocity layers or infinite timber layers. While the former is not physically possible given the MIDI restriction, the latter is most certainly possible given the randomization of the drum head hits based on how wide a circle you program and where they are placed. These placements along with the 128 MIDI volumes could reasonably produce a wide number of timbers if not technically infinite.

I programmed one snare with as wide a circle for left and right sticks as possible and the number of timbers I get out of that snare is significant.

Anyway, a clarification on what we're talking about here would be nice.

[reggie1979]

Quite impressive, those videos.

I can totally hear the limitations of SD3 personally. Not really here.

I don't have 300 bucks to spend but the more I know about it, the more impressed I am.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

Sure in context maybe all sounds good, but if you are promised infinite laters and get a 90’s 4-5 layer synth it kind of sucks.

You didn't get a 4-5 layer synth. You got what we state on the tin. Check out the videos and the vast majority who are enjoying all the layers and round robin they get with (along with the customizability and other great features of) MODO DRUM.

Peter, I didn't read what it says on the tin (I never read that stuff) but if infinite layers were promised, that's not even possible as MIDI only has 128 different velocities. So at most, there can be 128 layers with one of them having no sound. Unless of course I'm not understanding what we're talking about here.

Having said all that, I'm happy with what MODO Drum gives me as no other drum set I own gives me infinite layers to compare it to.

Can somebody please point out to me where it says infinite layers on the specs page or wherever?

128 values, yes, but MIDI velocity 0-127 is not necessarily a 1:1 mapping of a single parameter, and through MODO DRUM's physical modeling (instead of having to use specific samples, each hit is basically a complex mathematical equation) this can be exploited - in a good way - to create an amazing amount of realism. I saw this concept of breaking out of the "MIDI limitation of 0-127 as a 1:1 mapping of a single parameter" explained briefly in the technical introduction of a paper on MIDI velocity (emphasis mine):

MIDI key velocity (Rothstein 1995) is normally an indication of dynamic level or loudness, but the MIDI standard (MMA 1996) does not specify exactly how velocity should be interpreted. In synthesizers, key velocity can control many parameters, including amplitude, FM modulation depth, and sample selection. Even when velocity is used simply to scale audio amplitude, it is unclear how to map MIDI velocity to amplitude.

Edit - basically, in more complex synthesizers (which technically MODO DRUM has as its "heart" if you will) will do a lot more than control the amplitude of the signal when parsing the 128 velocity values which can elicit a quite organic at best or at worst a not-so-static result.

Also, the paper is The Interpretation of MIDI Velocity by Roger B. Dannenberg of the School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University

[wagtunes]

https://youtu.be/nuQuHSoGXfU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glhqqjHV8jQ

and a host of great videos that don't seem to show a lack of layers here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPWcn8r ... 3VdFDCKMI0

Okay, I watched the first video and now I understand what you're talking about and I also now believe that some people are misinterpreting what it being said. Understandable as I didn't really understand it either until now.

The best way I can explain it is with an example of another product that uses round robins.

EWQL Hollywood Strings uses round robins for its violins but there are only 4 of them from NV, NV, V, MV. Once you reach the 4th one, it automatically goes back to the first one. Given the range of a violin, this is still a lot of samples and that's just for legato playing.

It appears with MODO drums that, as I said given the placement of the hits based on the size of the circle, the round robins don't have to start at one number and end at another. Assuming that you can get 20 different timbers out of a snare drum (it may be more or less, I don't know) a round robin can start at any number and move to any other number because of the randomization of the hits. While this doesn't give infinite timbers (which is what I thought) it does give an infinite number of round robins if you do the math, which I'm not going to do here.

So technically, what it says "on the tin" is correct. If you were expecting something different (infinite velocities or timbers) well, that's on the user. Nowhere does it say infinite velocities or timbers. Just infinite round robins.

Assuming 20 timbers, you're talking about a 19 digit number as far as round robins (20 factorial). Even at 10 timbers, that's a 9 digit number or about 2 billion combinations. While not "technically" infinite, certainly a bigger variation than any human being can attain.

Just wanted to clarify what's going on here. There has been no deception as far as marketing. Just a huge misunderstanding on the part of the user.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

Also see my reply above specifically about how MIDI velocity is commonly misunderstood and can control multiple parameters and also generally combined with the round robins and other factors (like the hit area you mention) will provide a very natural sounding performance.

[wagtunes]

This is a jazz like track that I just did. Drums were played "live" with no MIDI programming at all. If you can't hear all the timbers you really need to get your ears checked. This is without a doubt the best drum performance I've ever gotten out of any drum set.

https://soundcloud.com/steven-wagenheim/city-juice

[Katzenberserker]

If you are having issues with the infinite round robin and other features that differentiate MODO DRUM from sampled libraries.

Actually what I said was: the round robins ARE different from mere samples, but not as much as to justify to say they are "infinite" as you can clearly hear patterns (which with infinite variations you wouldn't), despite the alleged complex synthesis.

The "infinite" velocity layers of MODO Drum do NOT sound different from a 5-6 layer sample instrument with the sudden changes of tone from one velocity to the other (60 to 61 for instance). Actually it's worse than for instance NI Abbey Road Vintage drummer, which does produce a very smooth crescendo on the snare and even goes down to barely audible (which MODO drum can't).

By the way, the jump of tone when switching from one velocity sample to the other is about as big as the tone difference you can produce between the extreme settings for the playing position. But there at least you can have smooth transitions between the different tones.

@musicdoc The hihat seems to have 4 layers of opening per tip and shank. They are blended more or less broadly, which other libraries (like NI Drums) don't. This gives you a smoother experience when controlling the hihats with CC.

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

There are absolutely more than 5-6 layers and MODO DRUM does sound different than a product that does (please refer to my post explaining velocity above and to the many videos indicating that MODO DRUM does not sound like a 5-6 layer instrument).

You're entitled to your opinion about the quality of sound, of course, but you're not hearing the same as the vast majority of MODO DRUM users (and people who have listened to extensive example) and I'd suggest you perhaps try to figure out what is causing that for you by reaching out directly for assistance.

[wagtunes]

If you are having issues with the infinite round robin and other features that differentiate MODO DRUM from sampled libraries.

Actually what I said was: the round robins ARE different from mere samples, but not as much as to justify to say they are "infinite" as you can clearly hear patterns (which with infinite variations you wouldn't), despite the alleged complex synthesis.

The "infinite" velocity layers of MODO Drum do NOT sound different from a 5-6 layer sample instrument with the sudden changes of tone from one velocity to the other (60 to 61 for instance). Actually it's worse than for instance NI Abbey Road Vintage drummer, which does produce a very smooth crescendo on the snare and even goes down to barely audible (which MODO drum can't).

By the way, the jump of tone when switching from one velocity sample to the other is about as big as the tone difference you can produce between the extreme settings for the playing position. But there at least you can have smooth transitions between the different tones.

@musicdoc The hihat seems to have 4 layers of opening per tip and shank. They are blended more or less broadly, which other libraries (like NI Drums) don't. This gives you a smoother experience when controlling the hihats with CC.

What your ears "hear" or "not" hear is irrelevant to what is being stated, which is factually correct. A human drummer may be able to have more control than a computer (which I highly doubt) but that still doesn't mean you're going to hear the difference in timbers with ever "different timber hit" that the human drummer makes. You may and you may not. I certainly can't hear infinite timbers when a drummer plays a drum roll starting soft and going loud. If you can, you're a better man than I am, that's for sure.

I'm sure most people wouldn't notice the difference at all.

[wagtunes]

Somebody put together a video on Youtube of how they made a cymbal and drum roll using a MIDI volume ramp off of hits generated with 16th notes played in real time. It was a bit convoluted but the end result was quite convincing. I dare anybody to say it's not.

I'll see if I can find the video again and post it here.

[plexuss]

I'd be interested to know how MODO Drum compares to these examples - those with MODO Drum can you get close or better than these? The fast drumming is not as realistic as the jazz but it's still not bad...


https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/jazz-kit/s-CcCfW

https://soundcloud.com/musicofplexus/fa ... ng/s-jRmbU

[wagtunes]

Go to about the 19 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNNyIm3gEdQ

[Katzenberserker]

Ok Steve, I think you can hear it:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RTrd4O ... sp=sharing

The variation of the hitting position is at max, the change of tone after 4 beats is just one velocity step more...


The biggest limitation when it comes to realism is the limited dynamics of the snare. Compare these two (MIDI is the same from odd grooves):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14oe-EX ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/143IGJZ ... sp=sharing

When using MIDI grooves you'd have to at least edit the snares to match the intended dynamics. The lower velocities are much too loud. Deleting the really quiet ghost notes and pulling down medium velocities may work. But IMHO this is really an issue that IK Multimedia has to fix.

[Katzenberserker]

Go to about the 19 minute mark.

And at 21 he's not at all impressed by the snare