Tone2 I2 vs Trueno Analog

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Auplant
KVRist
329 posts since 21 Mar, 2015

Post Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am

Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST

Goony
KVRist
33 posts since 1 Feb, 2015

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:12 am

Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
Cheap vsts sound good inc some free ones what does price have to do with it?
Ryzen 3600, X570 Gigabyte Aorus Ultra, Corsair MP600 PCIe gen4 nvme. Ableton Live 10, NI Maschine MK3 & KK S61 mk2, Minitaur, Peak,Deepmind 12D, Nord Drum 3p. Waves PC Beta Tester

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9832 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:40 am

ghettosynth wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:01 am
perpetual3 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:35 am
ghettosynth wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:11 am
kmonkey wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:09 pm
BONES wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:48 pm
If more developers did their own thing, instead of just copying things that most of us moved on from 40 years ago, there might be a lot more interesting and varied VSTi around.
Press sound demo on this one (sound example player)

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/4525/

It's free. I mean some developers are asking ton of money for such synth.
But that is precisely a model of something old. Moreover, it's not even a super interesting model. There's nothing wrong with it, per se, but it's very similar to Equinox, which ships with Reaktor. The phasor is just a stereo version of Kleinstein, from Equinox. The primary difference, other than the U/I, is that it has the fixed filters for the different voicings. Ok, cool, but it's hardly "new."

IMO, I think that one key advantage of taking a more technical approach to things is that one becomes less biased by things like U/I.
Yes, the UI bias is a good point, yet I’ve come to a place in my life where UI is becoming more of a priority than it has in the past. Not necessarily a deal breaker or the highest priority, but given the plethora of options today...
Yes, and I don't want to be misunderstood here. I think that U/I is important, it can make or break a synth for me as well. So one can be biased towards a synth in the sense that they prefer to use a synth with a great U/I, that's just preference. For the record, I don't think that the highly skeuomorphic design in question is "great," but whatever, that's a matter of opinion. However, one can also allow U/I to bias what they hear, that is where, IMO, the problem lies.

A lot of people seem to really like mediocre Reaktor ensembles cloaked in skeuomorphic U/Is. Often they're just copies of old factory ensembles dressed up.

In any case, forcing yourself to actually identify that differences exist rather than just relying on the playing experience helps to overcome bias that you might not be aware is there.
As a UI/UX designer in the game world, I can say that from experience, most players work better with a more skeuomorphic UI than the current trend of flat (though skeuomorphic in their own way) UIs that have propagated since Windows 8 hit the scene. I’m not saying that they’re aren’t bad skeuomorphic UI designs, there sure are, but when you remove all visual cues as to how to interact with interface elements, the results are usually not very good.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

ghettosynth
KVRAF
12083 posts since 13 Oct, 2009

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:14 pm

zerocrossing wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:40 am
As a UI/UX designer in the game world, I can say that from experience, most players work better with a more skeuomorphic UI than the current trend of flat (though skeuomorphic in their own way) UIs that have propagated since Windows 8 hit the scene. I’m not saying that they’re aren’t bad skeuomorphic UI designs, there sure are, but when you remove all visual cues as to how to interact with interface elements, the results are usually not very good.
Well, first, games aren't instruments. The need for suspension of disbelief in a musical instrument might translate to sales, i.e., people buy softsynths with pictures of wood, but I'm not convinced that it actually translates to usability. I think that this is probably much more important in games, so, more effort in ensuring suspension of disbelief probably translates more directly to both usability as well as sales. After all, you're not really killing dragons, you're just changing the state of game objects.

In any case, the default Reaktor elements are not flat. In fact, they've been the same since the early days of Reaktor with only slight modifications.

What I'm referring to as "excessive" is the trend to make a U/I a very close replica of the original instrument without any significant gain in functionality in the virtual space.

I also have some experience here. I don't think that you can argue, for example, that the physical space that is necessary for both operation and for the overall design aesthetic in a physical instrument, carries the same benefit when translated to a virtual instrument. The virtual instrument is intended to be operated with a mouse, and moreover, now has different aesthetic requirements.

In the instrument in question, for example, there is a very large amount of wasted space devoted to showing the FX pedals spread out. That is simply bad design. It offers no genuine advantage to operation that a slightly less skeuomorphic design, e.g., as in IK's pedalboards, would offer.

The original instrument, Equinox, is also skeuomorphic, but in a classic Reaktor sense. That is, it uses the built in knobs. I would argue that this interface could be improved slightly through the use of higher quality knob images, but I doubt very seriously that one would measure better "performance," e.g., greater usability of the instrument, from the excessive design in the library over the original Reaktor design.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here.

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9832 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:50 pm

ghettosynth wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:14 pm
zerocrossing wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:40 am
As a UI/UX designer in the game world, I can say that from experience, most players work better with a more skeuomorphic UI than the current trend of flat (though skeuomorphic in their own way) UIs that have propagated since Windows 8 hit the scene. I’m not saying that they’re aren’t bad skeuomorphic UI designs, there sure are, but when you remove all visual cues as to how to interact with interface elements, the results are usually not very good.
Well, first, games aren't instruments. The need for suspension of disbelief in a musical instrument might translate to sales, i.e., people buy softsynths with pictures of wood, but I'm not convinced that it actually translates to usability. I think that this is probably much more important in games, so, more effort in ensuring suspension of disbelief probably translates more directly to both usability as well as sales. After all, you're not really killing dragons, you're just changing the state of game objects.

In any case, the default Reaktor elements are not flat. In fact, they've been the same since the early days of Reaktor with only slight modifications.

What I'm referring to as "excessive" is the trend to make a U/I a very close replica of the original instrument without any significant gain in functionality in the virtual space.

I also have some experience here. I don't think that you can argue, for example, that the physical space that is necessary for both operation and for the overall design aesthetic in a physical instrument, carries the same benefit when translated to a virtual instrument. The virtual instrument is intended to be operated with a mouse, and moreover, now has different aesthetic requirements.

In the instrument in question, for example, there is a very large amount of wasted space devoted to showing the FX pedals spread out. That is simply bad design. It offers no genuine advantage to operation that a slightly less skeuomorphic design, e.g., as in IK's pedalboards, would offer.

The original instrument, Equinox, is also skeuomorphic, but in a classic Reaktor sense. That is, it uses the built in knobs. I would argue that this interface could be improved slightly through the use of higher quality knob images, but I doubt very seriously that one would measure better "performance," e.g., greater usability of the instrument, from the excessive design in the library over the original Reaktor design.

Anyway, we're getting off topic here.
Oh, I agree with all that, but what I’m talking about as skeuomorphic is stuff like the new Reaktor Blocks stuff. I only complain when the UI does stuff where there’s no indication that an element can be interacted with. Stuff like the elimination of depth cues in Windows’ windows, making things ambiguous for the sake of “clean” looking design.

Good flat design is possible, but it’s a lot harder. I had a client that wanted everything to look like Windows 8 but on a tablet. (A commercial product, but not a game) A lot of our UI elements had to be dragged and dropped. How do you communicate that a button can both be “clicked” (tapped) and dragged and dropped? I made a little “pressure plate” area of simple “grip dots.” I was told to remove it, even though my graphics were simple single color (gray) dots. It was a disaster. No one read the manual or watched the tutorials. People just got stuck and complained. The dots went back. People got it.

But I also like a little eye candy, as long as it doesn’t become distracting and serves the UI. Stuff like IK’s amps and stomp boxes are great, IMO.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

Auplant
KVRist
329 posts since 21 Mar, 2015

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 am

Goony wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:12 am
Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
Cheap vsts sound good inc some free ones what does price have to do with it?
my point was that the sound wasn't any special in comparison

User avatar
Distorted Horizon
KVRAF
2634 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:58 am

Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
I'd really like to see a vst that sounds this bad 8)

*edit*

Lovely "bad"

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9832 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:16 am

Auplant wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 am
Goony wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:12 am
Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
Cheap vsts sound good inc some free ones what does price have to do with it?
my point was that the sound wasn't any special in comparison
That was my point when I brought up Reaktor, but I also included the point that “special” is subjective and that an interesting character can often trump “quality.”

Case in point, the Sequential Prophet 12 and Pro 2 have rather low quality oscillators if you consider bandwidth a factor. Their upper frequency is truncated pretty severely even compared to most modern VSTs. If you were to make a judgement of them based on this, you’d probably dismiss these instruments as “not special.” However, if you listen to it as an entire comprehensive instrument... wow. Nothing in the VST world comes close. I love them.

Of course, you don’t have to like them, or like the Trueno. I think it has a weird kind of filter sound (based on the Polivoks?) It’s oscillators sound noisy and buzzy. It’s not a classically “beautiful” sounding synth, like a Model D or ARP Odyssey, but I find that refreshing. I’ve got classic Moog, ARP, Roland and Oberheim style filters covered in other hardware and software instruments. I’d have to spend some time with it to see if something that I already have could get me in similar territory. I suspect that I probably could go there in Reaktor, but I still think having this little dongle synth might be fun anyway, and we all know that Reaktor can be pretty resource greedy in a way that a hardware synth would not be.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

perpetual3
KVRian
982 posts since 28 Sep, 2012

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:36 am

zerocrossing wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:16 am
Auplant wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 am
Goony wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:12 am
Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
Cheap vsts sound good inc some free ones what does price have to do with it?
my point was that the sound wasn't any special in comparison
That was my point when I brought up Reaktor, but I also included the point that “special” is subjective and that an interesting character can often trump “quality.”

Case in point, the Sequential Prophet 12 and Pro 2 have rather low quality oscillators if you consider bandwidth a factor. Their upper frequency is truncated pretty severely even compared to most modern VSTs. If you were to make a judgement of them based on this, you’d probably dismiss these instruments as “not special.” However, if you listen to it as an entire comprehensive instrument... wow. Nothing in the VST world comes close. I love them.

Of course, you don’t have to like them, or like the Trueno. I think it has a weird kind of filter sound (based on the Polivoks?) It’s oscillators sound noisy and buzzy. It’s not a classically “beautiful” sounding synth, like a Model D or ARP Odyssey, but I find that refreshing. I’ve got classic Moog, ARP, Roland and Oberheim style filters covered in other hardware and software instruments. I’d have to spend some time with it to see if something that I already have could get me in similar territory. I suspect that I probably could go there in Reaktor, but I still think having this little dongle synth might be fun anyway, and we all know that Reaktor can be pretty resource greedy in a way that a hardware synth would not be.
Reasonable, as always, ZeroXing.

Goony
KVRist
33 posts since 1 Feb, 2015

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:08 am

Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
Ok so how does a cheap vst sound?
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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
8720 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:53 pm

I only paid $19 for Korg Mono/Poly VSTi so I imagine that qualifies.
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Auplant
KVRist
329 posts since 21 Mar, 2015

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:14 am

Goony wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:08 am
Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
Ok so how does a cheap vst sound?
All cheap software synths sound slightly thin and are not as big sounding as hardware synths. It's just a fact.

User avatar
Distorted Horizon
KVRAF
2634 posts since 17 Jan, 2017 from Planet of cats

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:18 am

Auplant wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:14 am
Goony wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:08 am
Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
Ok so how does a cheap vst sound?
All cheap software synths sound slightly thin and are not as big sounding as hardware synths. It's just a fact.
I paid 34€ for Synthmaster.. How stupid of me to think that thing sounds non "thin".

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
51650 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:19 am

Auplant wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:14 am
Goony wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:08 am
Auplant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:06 am
Really doesn't sound special to me, sounds like a cheap VST
Ok so how does a cheap vst sound?
All cheap software synths sound slightly thin and are not as big sounding as hardware synths. It's just a fact.
define fact in this context.

Kalamata Kid
KVRAF
3906 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA

Re: Trueno - REAL ANALOG, FINALLY!!!

Post Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:33 am

JK USB Tube Analog Synth
USB Analog Synth.png
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