Universal Synth Remote - VSTi midi Control

[mi-os]

Hi,

sorry, didn't read the whole thread yet, but i'm into designing/building diy synth controllers myself over the last couple of years.

The biggest issue is (imo) incomplete or faulty MIDI implementation in most plugins. Next would be no (or no easy) bidiretional communication. MIDI resolution maybe another problem.

I contacted some developers, but received close to zero interest in all these issues. It's very frustrating.

How will you overcome all this?

We have been working with each DAWs midi remote protocols to access the plugin parameters. this depends a lot on what the DAW makes available but so far with logic and Ableton we have been able to get automatic per plugin control mapping, preset changing etc. all working... We have looked at the Cubase Remote SDK and it seems to have what we need to make our system work too but we havnt really dug too far in to it yet. Its a lot of work but the only real way to do it without using a wrapper which is probably the easiest solution but not very elegant.

Thanks for your reply.

I assume you use the hosts automation system, not the plugins onboard MIDI functionality. But if the plugin developer doesn't expose certain parameters to the host or via its own MIDI interface, those parameters are not accessible. Biggest issue is mod matrices, most plugins don't expose them. I found no way to overcome this. How do you handle this?

[Phil Sonic Academy]

Hi,

sorry, didn't read the whole thread yet, but i'm into designing/building diy synth controllers myself over the last couple of years.

The biggest issue is (imo) incomplete or faulty MIDI implementation in most plugins. Next would be no (or no easy) bidiretional communication. MIDI resolution maybe another problem.

I contacted some developers, but received close to zero interest in all these issues. It's very frustrating.

How will you overcome all this?

We have been working with each DAWs midi remote protocols to access the plugin parameters. this depends a lot on what the DAW makes available but so far with logic and Ableton we have been able to get automatic per plugin control mapping, preset changing etc. all working... We have looked at the Cubase Remote SDK and it seems to have what we need to make our system work too but we havnt really dug too far in to it yet. Its a lot of work but the only real way to do it without using a wrapper which is probably the easiest solution but not very elegant.

Thanks for your reply.

I assume you use the hosts automation system, not the plugins onboard MIDI functionality. But if the plugin developer doesn't expose certain parameters to the host or via its own MIDI interface, those parameters are not accessible. Biggest issue is mod matrices, most plugins don't expose them. I found no way to overcome this. How do you handle this?

We aren't really that interested in stuff like mod matrix or deeper controls and settings etc. We are coming at it from a performance and production focus rather than a total sound design solution. It would be impossible to map synths that way in an intuitive manner and for deep sound design stuff its probably faster with a mouse and screen anyway.

What we really want is a controller that gives you quick automatic access to plugin controls that you use again and again in performance and production... Filters, envs, OSCs modifiers and fx. Stuff you would be automating in a track or using while performing live.

Its really about speeding up workflow through muscle memory... just knowing that whatever plugin you load up the Filter, envs etc. are all in the same place every time is an extremely pleasing experience. Something I've not had with any other controllers.

[Mace404]

What we really want is a controller that gives you quick automatic access to plugin controls that you use again and again in performance and production... Filters, envs, OSCs modifiers and fx. Stuff you would be automating in a track or using while performing live.

Its really about speeding up workflow through muscle memory... just knowing that whatever plugin you load up the Filter, envs etc. are all in the same place every time is an extremely pleasing experience. Something I've not had with any other controllers.

With that in mind I wonder if the encoders and faders in the current prototype are the right choice.
I would much more prefer endless rotaries with a high resolution ring/display for showing position.
Also the faders would be imho better off with proper touch strips with light guiding. (or motorized faders if you want to keep the hands-on from faders.

I am for example pleasantly surprised by the touch strips on the Maschine Jam.

[mi-os]

Hi,

sorry, didn't read the whole thread yet, but i'm into designing/building diy synth controllers myself over the last couple of years.

The biggest issue is (imo) incomplete or faulty MIDI implementation in most plugins. Next would be no (or no easy) bidiretional communication. MIDI resolution maybe another problem.

I contacted some developers, but received close to zero interest in all these issues. It's very frustrating.

How will you overcome all this?

We have been working with each DAWs midi remote protocols to access the plugin parameters. this depends a lot on what the DAW makes available but so far with logic and Ableton we have been able to get automatic per plugin control mapping, preset changing etc. all working... We have looked at the Cubase Remote SDK and it seems to have what we need to make our system work too but we havnt really dug too far in to it yet. Its a lot of work but the only real way to do it without using a wrapper which is probably the easiest solution but not very elegant.

Thanks for your reply.

I assume you use the hosts automation system, not the plugins onboard MIDI functionality. But if the plugin developer doesn't expose certain parameters to the host or via its own MIDI interface, those parameters are not accessible. Biggest issue is mod matrices, most plugins don't expose them. I found no way to overcome this. How do you handle this?

We aren't really that interested in stuff like mod matrix or deeper controls and settings etc. We are coming at it from a performance and production focus rather than a total sound design solution. It would be impossible to map synths that way in an intuitive manner and for deep sound design stuff its probably faster with a mouse and screen anyway.

What we really want is a controller that gives you quick automatic access to plugin controls that you use again and again in performance and production... Filters, envs, OSCs modifiers and fx. Stuff you would be automating in a track or using while performing live.

Its really about speeding up workflow through muscle memory... just knowing that whatever plugin you load up the Filter, envs etc. are all in the same place every time is an extremely pleasing experience. Something I've not had with any other controllers.

A pity, i was hoping for some magical solution

My idea is actually a deep controller with some stuff hidden in dedicated menus.

[zzz00m]

The biggest issue is (imo) incomplete or faulty MIDI implementation in most plugins. Next would be no (or no easy) bidiretional communication. MIDI resolution maybe another problem.

I am using the Akai VIP software and I have noticed a gap with some plugins that do not share data with the host bidirectionally, often making it impossible to import the patch map into the VIP host. I think this is influenced by the issues you mentioned. The plugin implementation is not standard. Some plugins work very well with VIP, while others do not work at all. But it works great when it works!

In trying to at least determine what communication a plugin supports, without using VIP, I've found when using Ableton live there is a handy way to check for the communication between plugin and host, more or less as a test. Once you have inserted a plugin in Live, it will show up in the Live device view.

Some plugins will let you send a preset from Live's device view 'Select VST Preset' dropdown menu, while some will receive and display preset changes made from the plugin's UI, but not allow you to choose them from the device view. Some work bidirectionally. There is no consistency from one plugin to the next, but overall I have noticed plugins that adhere to the old MIDI standard of bank/patch select, with banks of patches 0-127, work best. The rest of them use proprietary plugin browsers that can be hit or miss using external control.

[slackerluddite]

I agree that this thing should focus only on mapping the main performance parameters... in fact I wouldn't want pages either tbh there are enough controls there for a useful single page synth control surface. If I'm going to have to start paging I may as well stick with the standard 8 controls with display strips but the whole point is the muscle memory benefit... part of the reason the Moog mini is so popular is just that...and yeah it sounds nice but scrolling through menus on tiny displays just sucks compared to a full gui designed for a 4k monitor. In fact many of the pro producers and sound designers do sound design for their hardware synths from a gui editor on the pc anyway.. they've understood that it's all so much easier when you can see and overview and you don't have to walk over to the synth. Anyway this is about performance or making a track on the fly and I've been tempted to get a Kiwitechnics Pach Editor to use with my vsti synths but if you guys are prepared to do all the hard work for me with USB and support all the respected vsti syths then I'm on board 100%. These days NI Komplete Kontrol looks pretty good but all in all it's still pages so no muscle memory so please please please don't let this project die so that I can be lazy :0

So how is the project going? Seriously if this were marketed correctly and supported heaps of peoples' favorite synths and made it open enough for people to easily share their configs for synths you don't have time to support this would be a hit.

[Elektronisch]

so how this thing is coming?

[slackerluddite]

all is quiet it seems however there is another project which looks a bit more straight forward but who knows... these things seem to struggle to get off the ground. Even Arturia seem to have moved away from this as their new Keylab models have less knobs and sliders than the older models

This is the other one started recently it’s an Indegogo campaign:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the- ... controller#/

[Omniphonix]

all is quiet it seems however there is another project which looks a bit more straight forward but who knows... these things seem to struggle to get off the ground. Even Arturia seem to have moved away from this as their new Keylab models have less knobs and sliders than the older models

This is the other one started recently it’s an Indegogo campaign:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the- ... controller#/

Honestly, I like the look and layout of Sonic Academy's project better than this Rava Yamana box of knobs. I hope the USR-1 isn't dead.

[trusampler]

Presonus studio one user here, and to hear it's daw exclusive puts me out. Like the idea,but your aim should be on ALL daws on release,not something specific,besides the fact what happens when a new daw comes out, check out the Native Instruments KK MK2 complaints with StudioOne for example, lotta profit missed .

[FastTriggerFish]

Any update on this ?

[chk071]

I wonder too, hopefully this wasn't scrubbed.

[Phil Sonic Academy]

Yep we are Still working on this... Heres where are at...

Ableton Full support for ANA 2 and many other plugins - Ableton has a 128 parameter limitation - we can work around that with ANA 2 using direct control built in to the synth. but other plugins will have that 128 limit. theres only a handful of synths where this has a meaningful negative impact. Most use way less than 128 parameters so its not an issue.

Logic - Full support for ANA 2 and other plugins - no parameter limit but less control over parameter types.. so we cant do some of the cool stuff you can do in Ableton like conditional switching.. e.g. Diva has a different set of OSC controls depending on what OSC type is selected. Logic only lets you specify parameter order so more general osc controls have to be used.

Cubase - Currently investigating the Remote SDK - Looks like similar functionality to Logic - But we can also get good direct control to ANA 2

We have implemented Direct control built in to ANA 2 so it will work on pretty much any DAW with some limitations depending on the DAW. Some don't support sending track information to plugins so users would have to manually chose which instance to control - but we are looking for workarounds for this. This also opens up the possibility of doing control through a wrapper for yet to be fully supported DAWS (which we dont really like but could be a solution for some)

Once we are happy we have got something that covers most bases and is simple to install and set up we will ask for feedback from the community and if its super positive we will run a kickstarter. Im still confident we will build a bunch of these as it really is lots of fun to use and think a lot of you guys would really enjoy using the unit.

[Omniphonix]

Presonus studio one user here, and to hear it's daw exclusive puts me out. Like the idea,but your aim should be on ALL daws on release,not something specific,besides the fact what happens when a new daw comes out, check out the Native Instruments KK MK2 complaints with StudioOne for example, lotta profit missed .

To make it not DAW-specific would mean they need to use a wrapper plugin. Using a wrapper plugin means that at some point if the wrapper doesn't get updated and stops working. Now all your plugins fail to load in all projects because the wrapper doesn't work. Wrappers are dangerous, it's the reason I got rid of my Novation RemoteSL 61 and got a Nektar Panorama P6.

[sureno]

Eager for the Kickstarter, happy to invest