Native Instruments The Grandeur: Any opinions?

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fgimian wrote:I'm not sure who sampled Alicia's Keys for NI but that company would have done a much much better job imho.
Scarbee.

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I noticed taht while the Kontakt versions of teh NI pianis usually only incude a single preset or a few the NKS presets in Komplete Kontrol usually inlcude quite a lot of presets (including te parameter mappings for the Komplete Kontrol keyboards).
Last edited by Ingonator on Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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While for most NI Pianos at the official website this info seems to be missing I just found a website where the original Pianos for the Komplete 10 Pianos are mentioned (please correct me if this is wrong):

- The Grandeur: Hamburg Steinway Model D Concert Grand
- The Maverick: Bechstein Model A Grand (1905)
- The Gentleman: Bechstein Model A Upright (1908)
- The Giant: Klavins Model 370i

- Alicia's Keys: Yamaha C3 Neo (custom made version for Alicia Keys so quite unique)

As already mentioend above Alicia's Keys was sampled by Scarbee while the other 4 (and also Una Corda) were sampled by Uli Baronowsky from Galaxy Isntruments.

Klavins also seemed to have built the Piano used for Una Corda together with pianist Nils Frahm (Kontakt instrument included in Komplete 11). They got their own website and at this page the original Piano for The Giant is shown:
http://klavins-pianos.com/b/index.htm
Here sithe Una Corda Piano: http://klavins-pianos.com/b/unacorda_en.htm



UPDATE:
After finally installing The Maverick that i somehow ignored so far (while included with Komplete 10...) i now also received the license for the second hand Alicia's Keys taht i bought yesterday at teh Marketpalce (for 37 € !!). Currently installing it so then i will have all 5 Pianos mentioend above.
Last edited by Ingonator on Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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Ingonator wrote: UPDATE:
After finally installing The Maverick that i somehow ignored so far (while included with Komplete 10...) i now also received the license for the second hand Alicia's Keys taht i bought yesterday at teh Marketpalce (for 37 € !!). Currently installing it so then i will have all 5 Pianos mentioend above.
After playing shortly with The Maverick that is quite nice too i just started playing with Alicia's Keys and this indeed sounds very nice. The many positive comments i did read about it seem to be mostly correct.
It does not have as many options for tweaking the sound as the other 4 NI Pianos in Komplete 10 but in this case it seems to work nicely as it is.
I would not really say that Alicia's Keys sounds so much better than the other NI Pianos like e-g- The Grandeur but it is simply different (and also nice as it is) and it is nice that those NI Pianos do not sound really similar (and with those otehrs te basic sound could be tweaked quite a bit) so you got multiple options depending on what you need at the moment.
Overall Alicia's Keys seems to sound smoother/softer than e.g. The Grandeur (that seems to be based o na Steinway D) which could sound more harsh (also depending on the Color and EQ settings there),

Anyway i think that Alicia's Keys is a good starting point before you check trying the others from NI (if you got all of them with Komplete) for a certain track. With the included parameters and a little EQing it should be also possible to get differnt results from it.

I found a YouTube comparison video about Alicia'S Keys and Synthogy Ivory (taht one is based o a Steinway Model D). This was one of teh comments there:
IVORY sounds brighter and crisper to me. When listening, it feels like I'm standing next to the piano. If I wanted the listener to feel that, IVORY would be my choice. Alecia's Keys sounds richer, darker, fuller which is perfect for the kind of music she writes. I can't imagine hearing IVORY on her songs; it would take the feeling away from the song I think. That being said, it isn't a matter of which one is better, but a matter of which one is better for the tunes you're writing. Assuming you guys are composers.
The differences mentioned more or less sums up my own impression, also in comparison to e.g. The Grandeur. Like i also mentioend it also depnds on what kind of sound you need for a track.

Alicia's Keys also seems to be a great choice for ambient stuff when e.g. layered with lush pads.

Currently i am also checking some EQs and the best settings in those for the different NI Pianos (especially Alicia's Keys and the Grandeur). Not like the original sound of e.g. Alica's Keys is bad but with some different EQ settings it s possible to get some variations.


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I just started trying to layer the XLN Electric Grand (= Yamaha CP-80) with Alicia's Keys (= Yamaha C3 Neo) and got some nice results. I also tried to route both into a Chorus and Reverb effect (at the moment UVI Thorus and Lexicon MXR Native Reverb but i also tried with e.g. ValhallaÜberMod for Chorus and ValhallaPlate and ValhallaVintageVerb for Reverb). Sometiems also a Delay (also dedicated Ping Pong delay) is graet and at the moment NI Replika and Waves H-Delay are my favorite choices there. Also got a few choices for external EQs.

The sound of the CP-80 is really unique and differnt to pure Acoustic Pianos but i really like it. Of course the difference is also that you could use the samples directly based on line output instead of having to use microphones like with Acoustic Pianos but the plugin includes multiple options (like a connected Amp recorded with microphones) and you could tweak the sound quite much.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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I just compared the latest demo version of Pianoteq 5 Standard (which includes a lot of different Piano models) to Alicia's Keys and 2 other Pianos.
The sound of Pianoteq indeed improved since the previous versions that i tested too (al least v4 and v3 if i remember correctly and those sounded quite bad IMO...).

I had checked multiple models and multiple presets for each of the models and overall it sounded really good. Anyway i did not find a single one that sounded as pleasing as Alicia's Keys does for me.
Alicia's Keys was a joy to play with from the first second on while i never really had that feeling with any of the models in the Pianoteq 5 demo. Maybe it is great for others but somehow is not seem to really be for me.
If you want the Pianoteq versions where you could fully edit the models and also want some additional models (only 2 are included in the normal purchase) it could also get really expensive (49 € for an aditional model and the full package with Pianoteq 5 Pro tazht includes full editing and all available models costs 699 € !!).

As The Grandeur should be closer to the Steinway Model D model in Pianoteq 5 (as The Grandeur seemed to be sampled from one of those) I also compared this and with a little tweaking of the "Color", "Lid" (Lid fully up) and EQ settings (the built-in or an external EQ) both could sound really similar while overall i would somehow still prefer the sound of The Grandeur in comparison.

I also tried to compare to Arturia Piano V that besides some E-Pianos and organs is included in V-Collection 5 (and is fully modeled like Pianoteq with no samples involved) and loaded the "Concert D" preset which first sounded quite differnt but just tweaking the built-in EQ i could get really close to the Steinway Model D model in Pianoteq. Even if Pianoteq overall still seems to be better in comparison Arturia Model D is not really bad and it also offers some tweaking of te 9 included models and also 5 microphone position presets (and with certain presets and/or a litle tweaking you could actually get really good results).


With some of the Pianoteq models at least in certain octaves (while with other octaves it seemed to be better) the sound still seemed to be slightly "artificial "for my ears and not 100% like a real Acoustic Piano.
Last edited by Ingonator on Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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I wonder what the Spectrasonics grand piano will be like that's released on Monday.

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Jax Pok wrote:I wonder what the Spectrasonics grand piano will be like that's released on Monday.
Actually the custom made Yamaha C7 seems to be the only grand piano included in Keyscape (besides 2 Upright pianos).
In terms of sampling unique and/or rare pianos NIs Alicia's Keys, The Giant and Una Corda seem to be in the same league or even better. Actually NI (with help of Scarbee and Galaxy Instruments) seemed to be the only ones sampling the included pianos so far. Also the pianos sampled for The Maverick and The Gentleman seeme to be more than 100 years old so they were far from common.


At the moment i am quite happy with what i got now which after buying 2 products this week (one very cheap second hand and the other at a special price) are:

- NI Komplete 10: Alicia's Keys, The Grandeur, The Maverick, The Gentleman, The Giant, Scarbee Vintage Keys, Kontakt 5 Library Pianos/Keys
- XLN Addictive Keys Electric Grand (Yamaha CP-80)
- True Pianos
- Arturia V-Collcetion 5: Piano V, Wurli V2, Stage-73 V
- Ableton Live 9 Suite: Electric (by AAS), Tension (by AAS), several sampled instruments

Also got a few FM synths for FM based pianos.


If i would update to Komplete 11 (Standard version) I could also get the Una Corda piano.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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I bought the NI definitive piano collection las year. I liked the grandeur and the maverick, but even after playing them daily for months I kept coming back to the pianoteq demo. They are great but they are more for production than for playing and sound beautiful in a mix.

After considering it for long I finally got a second hand license for a good price with some add-ons (pianoteq is quite expensive). I am super happy.

I am selling the NI definitive piano collection con the marketplace for anyone interested.
dedication to flying

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I have many sampled acoustic pianos,including the American Concert D and the Italian Grand from Synthogy....

Both very good sampled pianos....

But my favourite and the most practical is The Grandeur....

It's very dynamic and it sits great in the mix....

I could never get the dynamics I am used to hearing in a "real" piano out of Alicia's Keys...

You can tweak the parameters of The Grandeur enough in the K5 engine,to not really need to call up another acoustic piano....

I didn't really like the other pianos in the new NI collection....

Just The Grandeur....

It's a winner :)
No auto tune...

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Native Instruments The Grandeur: Any opinions?

Keyscape. :P

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GMusic wrote:Native Instruments The Grandeur: Any opinions?

Keyscape. :P
For the price of Keyscape (which only has ONE grand piano) you can buy the entire piano collection of NI, or Pianoteq Standard and a few extra models. Even Ivory Grand Pianos (which also features a Yamaha C7) costs less. And, as I already wrote, when I heard the Revolutionary played in the grand piano of Keyscape, it really didn't impress me. I think the problem with Keyscape is that it doesn't have sympathetic resonance when the sustain pedal is on. This makes A LOT of difference in an acoustic piano. The Grandeur sounds better on that, IMO.
Last edited by fmr on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

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digitalboytn wrote: Just The Grandeur....

It's a winner :)
I really like it too while Alicia's Keys adds another "flavor" and sounds very nice on it's own (while it maybe does not work for every track). I also like that with the Color and Lid controls and the built-in EQ you could tweak the sound of The Grandeur quite much.
While the other pianos in Komplete 10 are nice too at the moment i will focus on The Grandeur and Alicia's Keys (the real pianos sampled there seem to be Steinway Model D and Yamaha C3 Neo).
While i like the three grand pianos in Komplete 10 (including Alicia's Keys) somehow the two Upright pianos did not really click with me yet (while sound differnt to the grand pianos which is good).

Also got some nice results from adding an EQ to both THe Grandeur and Alicia's Keys while teh EQ settings are not really similar.

Besides that i currently also use the XLN Electric Grand (= CP-80) which has a quite different sound compared to Acoustic Pianos (also due to the pickup at the strings). The Bass you could get from this is also really good. You coudl also tweak the sound quite much like in the Grandeur (e.g. make it sound softer or harder).
Also a layer with The Grandeur or Alicia'S Keys sounds interesting.

Before i got Komplete 10 i mostly used True Pianos, especially the Atlantis module. This is still an option if it it would fit in a track but my fisrt choices are the other 3 mentioned above (including the CP-80 even if it is not a "proper" acoustic piano like the others...).
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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Yesterday i mentioned i compared the Pianiteq 5 demo to Alicia's Keys (and 2 other pianos).

As the model names in Pianoteq could be a bit confusing i now found that teh "YC5 Rock Piano" coudl be based on a Yamaha C5 which should be the closest model there compared to the C3 Neo on which Alicia's Keys is based.

After comparing those again i found that the YC5 in Pianoteq sounds good on it's own and somehow close but i would still prefer Alicia'S Keys from those. The Pianoteq YC5 model, like most other models sounds more bright and harsh and maybe a litlle EQ tweaking coukld make it sound more pleasing. I tried the "Pop" and "Rock" presets of the built-in EQ (and also others) but still does not seem to sound great. Some manual tweaking of the EQ could maybe help.

I also found that the bass notes in that YC5 model could sound quite strange compared to Alicia's Keys and also other sampled Pianos. A more "metallic" kind of sound there.
I then reduced the hammer hardness of the YC5 model and while the metallic noise got less it still does not sound similar to the sample based pianos (and i would still prefer the sampled ones in comparison). You could also say it does not sound really "natural" there, at least for me.

The also re-checked the Model B model that seems to be a newer one but found mostly the same there.


As a conclusion i could say that obviously Pianoteq 5 is not really for me (like i aready found with the demo of previous versions), even if some users that seem to be much better and experienced at playing piano than i am do recommend it. It also not that it is really cheap except the stage version whuch does not alow tweaking of teh models liek teh Standard and Pro versions. If you buy it you only have 2 models included and each additional costs 49€ or 699€ for the complete package (of course i know tere are also free models...).

The Stage version also does not seem to allow tweaking the hammer hardness which i would need to get somewhere close my own needs. The Standard version that allows this cost 249€ compared to 99€ for the Stage so it is much more expensive. The Pro version (with 2 models like the others) costs 399€ which is more then the upcoming Keyscape or any high quality Piano sample library (even those that include multiple pianos).


Last but not least as mentioned yesterday i also got Arturia Piano V (in V-Colletion 5) that is fully modeled too and with a little tweaking (incluing the built-in EQ) it could sound quite good too, maybe for my personal taste even better than some of those Pianoteq models. Pinao V also includes some unique models like the Glass Grand Piano and Metal Grand Piano that could sound quite differnt to a usual piano.
This is the first version of Piano V and i am sure it will be further improved in the future.


UPDATE:
With some tweaking to the Concert Grand model in Piano V i am coming closer to a sound really like now.
Besides teh Mic setup and teh EQ teh most important parameters seem to be Hammer Hardness, Unison Detune and "Soundboard" (in teh Mechanics section). For a smoother sound there is also the "Intimate Grand" model.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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I rather like the sound of The Grandeur (and the Maverick/the Gentleman), what bugs me very slightly about all 3 is a tendency that if you play somewhat rapidly occasionally one note will be significantly muted regardless of whether the physical dynamic (iow: how hard you hit the key) is equal to all the others. There's no rhyme nor reason neither to a specific note on the scale, nor a specific note in the sequence, nor does it happen terribly often, just often enough that it is noticeable.

But as far as the sound goes I'm very happy with this, it is significantly better than my Yamaha DP (don't recall exact model) both in the individual note sounds as well as the interaction/resonance and dynamic response.

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most overlooked
My Piano
http://fluffyaudio.com/shop/mypiano/

Listen to Silent Whispers

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