Best soft synth for beginners? Reaktor 6/Dune 2/Omnisphere/Zebra 2?

[wagtunes]

That's why Reaktor will be the last synth I'd recommend to somebody just starting out. You have no idea if they have any inclination or the necessary brainpower to use more than 10% of what Reaktor offers.

...

That's why something like The Legend is a great value. It's only $99 and it's so simple to program you'd have to be brain dead not to be able to.

So, let's see if I get this. Reaktor + 2-OSC is difficult to program, but The Legend isn't?

Of course, if you're going to go for something that simple, no sense in spending money. There are a number of free synths that are simple to program that will serve the same purpose, learning how to program synths.

Right, I agree. I even said that above. If you're going to spend even $99, Reaktor, even at $200 is far better value and can be just as simple as The Legend, and will be a learning lab for years to come.

But to even consider Zebra and Reaktor in the same breath at the same price is just absurd. Even if you never use anything but the factory ensembles there's very little competition there. The only thing interesting about Zebra in that comparison is that for many sounds Reaktor will use more CPU than Zebra for the same polyphony.

I also discovered that, even though I was looking for mostly open ended synths, that if I wanted to get some classic sounds for certain genres I had to also get some simple synths.

All of this is available in Reaktor. Simple synths, classic sounding synths, weird sounding synths. IIRC, you only recently upgraded and were lamenting what you thought was difficult about Reaktor. I really don't think that you're the right guy to ask about Reaktor.

That said, I don't agree with you at all about any requirement for "simple synths." There's nothing intrinsic in a "simple synth" that can't be accomplished in many more complex synths. Don't get me wrong, I use simple synths all of the time. Especially ones that I whip up in Reaktor, but it isn't to get "classic sounds", whatever that is supposed to mean. It's almost always about using specific technology.

That said, if one is going to commit to buying synths, what those of us advocating Reaktor/Kontakt have been saying is that Komplete is just a great place to start in terms of value. IMNSHO, there is still no better value on the market overall.

Overall, I'm not arguing with you. And yes, value wise, Komplete is hard to beat.

What you're not understanding about what I'm saying or just choosing to ignore it is this.

I'm not going to tell somebody to spend $200 on Reaktor if all they're going to do is pull up an ensemble and play presets with no desire to get any deeper than that. Somebody doing that and that ONLY is spending $200 that doesn't need to be spent.

That's all I'm saying. It's overkill for that particular customer.

They're better off downloading Synth1 (over 10,000 available presets online) and be done with it.

[EnGee]

To be honest, all the 4 synths can be very complex. From most complex to less:
Reaktor
Omnisphere
Zebra
Dune 2

However, don't underestimate Dune 2! It can be very complex in the Mod Matrix. Download the demo and see for yourself how complex it can be. There are enough sources, and tons of destinations (even the FX) and above all, the Voices choice! Crazy!

Now, for Zebra, unlike some others, I really like the design of it. I'm on the fence really, although I don't need it, but I really like the workflow. It can be very simple with very clear routing and it has a lot of choices. It is very powerful synth, but I might wait for Z3.

Reaktor can be simple also and you can just use the ensembles as mentioned, but between the ensembles and VSTi, I prefer VSTi, especially in presets management. Reaktor also is more in your face synth, even the calm pads has strong presence. Sometimes, you don't want that! You want a weaker or softer synth. This is my opinion of course

[Chapelle]

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[ghettosynth]

Reaktor can be simple also and you can just use the ensembles as mentioned, but between the ensembles and VSTi, I prefer VSTi, especially in presets management.

No doubt. Preset management in Reaktor is both a blessing and a curse. They keep trying to make it simpler but in doing so, it never quite gets there and they hamper its usefulness.

I'll give you a good example. All of the Blocks have the header turned off so that you don't see the instrument preset browser. That, however, is a super powerful feature in a modular. Each module can have its own presets and then the overall ensemble can retrieve those presets.

You can ignore most of this, but I agree that it's still not as clean as it is with other plugins.

Reaktor also is more in your face synth, even the calm pads has strong presence. Sometimes, you don't want that! You want a weaker or softer synth. This is my opinion of course

This, however, is utter nonsense. You just don't know how to program or how to choose the right ensembles. It's not even something that you can argue with because you're saying anything of substance.

It is, however, fundamentally wrong. Reaktor is a programming language and if you can achieve particular sonic goal outside of Reaktor then in almost all cases you can achieve the same goal inside of reaktor modulo CPU performance issues.

It's not even true anymore that all of the factory ensembles use the non-core components.

[Numanoid]

This, however, is utter nonsense. You just don't know how to program or how to choose the right ensembles. It's not even something that you can argue with because you're saying anything of substance.

Are you on a powertrip or something

Like some kind of superuser know it all

[EnGee]

Reaktor also is more in your face synth, even the calm pads has strong presence. Sometimes, you don't want that! You want a weaker or softer synth. This is my opinion of course

This, however, is utter nonsense. You just don't know how to program or how to choose the right ensembles. It's not even something that you can argue with because you're saying anything of substance.

Maybe! Maybe it is just a psychological feeling. NI Prism can make very soft pads and Razor in some extent. Anyway, I always have the image of 'strong' presence when I want to choose Reaktor.

It is, however, fundamentally wrong. Reaktor is a programming language and if you can achieve particular sonic goal outside of Reaktor then in almost all cases you can achieve the same goal inside of reaktor modulo CPU performance issues.

It's not even true anymore that all of the factory ensembles use the non-core components.

Really? Reaktor has a programming language? This is the first time I hear about it! What kind of programming language it has? If it is near C# or Java, then I'm interested, but if it is C/C++ hell, then no!

[wagtunes]

Reaktor also is more in your face synth, even the calm pads has strong presence. Sometimes, you don't want that! You want a weaker or softer synth. This is my opinion of course

This, however, is utter nonsense. You just don't know how to program or how to choose the right ensembles. It's not even something that you can argue with because you're saying anything of substance.

Maybe! Maybe it is just a psychological feeling. NI Prism can make very soft pads and Razor in some extent. Anyway, I always have the image of 'strong' presence when I want to choose Reaktor.

It is, however, fundamentally wrong. Reaktor is a programming language and if you can achieve particular sonic goal outside of Reaktor then in almost all cases you can achieve the same goal inside of reaktor modulo CPU performance issues.

It's not even true anymore that all of the factory ensembles use the non-core components.

Really? Reaktor has a programming language? This is the first time I hear about it! What kind of programming language it has? If it is near C# or Java, then I'm interested, but if it is C/C++ hell, then no!

If you want to build ensembles then yeah, Reaktor does have a kind of language. And depending on how deep you want to go (you can actually design your own filter) it can get quite complex which is why I don't bother with that stuff. I'm just getting the hang of putting blocks together and that's more than enough for me.

[ghettosynth]

Reaktor also is more in your face synth, even the calm pads has strong presence. Sometimes, you don't want that! You want a weaker or softer synth. This is my opinion of course

This, however, is utter nonsense. You just don't know how to program or how to choose the right ensembles. It's not even something that you can argue with because you're saying anything of substance.

Maybe! Maybe it is just a psychological feeling. NI Prism can make very soft pads and Razor in some extent. Anyway, I always have the image of 'strong' presence when I want to choose Reaktor.

It's almost certainly a function of what you choose. Give an example of what you think is a very soft pad?

It is, however, fundamentally wrong. Reaktor is a programming language and if you can achieve particular sonic goal outside of Reaktor then in almost all cases you can achieve the same goal inside of reaktor modulo CPU performance issues.

It's not even true anymore that all of the factory ensembles use the non-core components.

Really? Reaktor has a programming language? This is the first time I hear about it! What kind of programming language it has? If it is near C# or Java, then I'm interested, but if it is C/C++ hell, then no!

No, Reaktor IS a programming language. It belongs to the family of languages that are referred to in the literature as "data flow" programming languages. It is not a general purpose language like C++ or Java, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a language. In fact, with the exception of infinite storage, which applies to all languages, it is Turing complete.

With respect to synthesizers however, there is very little that can be accomplished outside of Reaktor that can't be accomplished within, modulo CPU usage issues. So, there are almost NO sounds that cannot be achieved with Reaktor. If you can't get them from Reaktor, it isn't the tool, it's you.

[EnGee]

It's almost certainly a function of what you choose. Give an example of what you think is a very soft pad?

Maybe I'll do it later (after my siesta!), but first I will compare it with other synths I have and see what conclusion I reach.

No, Reaktor IS a programming language. It belongs to the family of languages that are referred to in the literature as "data flow" programming languages. It is not a general purpose language like C++ or Java, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a language. In fact, with the exception of infinite storage, which applies to all languages, it is Turing complete.

I'll read more about it and see, if there are conditional statements, loop operators, functions, objects (maybe!!). I will see what kind of a programming language it is, maybe it is higher than C++ (more abstract), then it would be mostly limited, but first I need to read about it. Are there books/resources other than the manual?

With respect to synthesizers however, there is very little that can be accomplished outside of Reaktor that can't be accomplished within, modulo CPU usage issues. So, there are almost NO sounds that cannot be achieved with Reaktor. If you can't get them from Reaktor, it isn't the tool, it's you.

Don't be a snob! I know you are full of yourself, but I'm trying to ignore that! So, don't mention your superiority in thinking all the times because it gets boring quick.

So, you have only Reaktor and according to you, there is no need to any other synthesizer. Is that what you want to say? In your humble opinion?

[ghettosynth]

No, Reaktor IS a programming language. It belongs to the family of languages that are referred to in the literature as "data flow" programming languages. It is not a general purpose language like C++ or Java, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a language. In fact, with the exception of infinite storage, which applies to all languages, it is Turing complete.

I'll read more about it and see, if there are conditional statements, loop operators, functions, objects (maybe!!). I will see what kind of a programming language it is, maybe it is higher than C++ (more abstract), then it would be mostly limited, but first I need to read about it. Are there books/resources other than the manual?

I'm not sure you quite get what programming language means here. I'd look up "data flow" languages on scholar. google.org for starters.

With respect to synthesizers however, there is very little that can be accomplished outside of Reaktor that can't be accomplished within, modulo CPU usage issues. So, there are almost NO sounds that cannot be achieved with Reaktor. If you can't get them from Reaktor, it isn't the tool, it's you.

Don't be a snob! I know you are full of yourself, but I'm trying to ignore that! So, don't mention your superiority in thinking all the times because it gets boring quick.

You're projecting, that's a statement of fact and nothing more. There are very few DSP algorithms that can't be implemented in Reaktor, so, if you think that you can get some filter or oscillator sound outside of Reaktor that you can't get in Reaktor, it's almost certain that you're just wrong.

So, you have only Reaktor and according to you, there is no need to any other synthesizer. Is that what you want to say? In your humble opinion?

No, you see, this is a problem that many people who aren't skilled in arguing seem to have. In essence, you are creating a strawman, I never said that. I said that you can get almost any sound, modulo CPU consumption out of Reaktor. However, let's get back down to earth here, you were talking about a "soft pad", and then, when pressed, you couldn't come up with even one example. So let's not elevate your inability to get a soft pad from Reaktor into a claim from me that there's no value to owning other synths, ok?

Can you even name a synth that you think creates soft pads?

Or, more likely, you are just elevating your past perception into a position and then getting bent when you're getting called on it. I can appreciate that you haven't found sounds that you like in existing Reaktor ensembles, but that has nothing to do with it's ability to create such sounds.

[wagtunes]

Ghetto, let me ask you a question.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any sound that another synth can make, Reaktor can make the same sound.

Are you thus saying that Reaktor doesn't have its own sound engine that ultimately colors the sound?

The reason I am asking, and this is why I don't own just one synth, is because I find that each synth, even synths that seem to overlap in the kinds of sounds they "specialize" in (Massive, Serum, Dune 2, Spire, as examples) all have their own sound engines which makes it so that Dune 2 just can't sound like Massive and vice versa. There is something about the overall sound quality of each of those synths that makes it so that if I want a very specific "quality" of sound, I have to go to either Dune 2 or Massive. I can't go to both.

Isn't Reaktor like that as well? Doesn't it have its own sound engine and overall color?

I mean I seriously doubt that I can get Reaktor to sound like Dune 2.

[ghettosynth]

Ghetto, let me ask you a question.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that any sound that another synth can make, Reaktor can make the same sound.

Are you thus saying that Reaktor doesn't have its own sound engine that ultimately colors the sound?

With all due respect, I don't think that you can define the phrase "sound engine" in any meaningful way.

Isn't Reaktor like that as well? Doesn't it have its own sound engine and overall color?

Not really, not in the sense that you understand it.

I mean I seriously doubt that I can get Reaktor to sound like Dune 2.

I don't disagree. You only just upgraded to 6 after complaining that Reaktor was too complex for you. I'm talking about what's possible assuming that you know how to do whatever it is that you're trying to do.

However, the previous poster was just talking about "soft pads", so, again, let's not elevate this into something more than what we're talking about. If you can't get soft pads out of Reaktor, you just don't know how to program a synth.

Now, if you can't get Reaktor to sound like RePro 1, then that might not be a reflection of anything other than Urs is very talented and that kind of modeling is non-trivial. However, given a sufficiently powerful CPU,you absolutely can get Reaktor to sound like RePro 1. That is, I believe that Urs could get Reaktor to produce the sounds of RePro 1.

The mythical "sound engine" doesn't exist, it's just math.

Now, on a more grounded level of discussion. You can cover a LOT of ground with Reaktor, but, I do own other synths. It's not that I don't believe that you can get the sounds of, for example, VacuumPro out of Reaktor, it's just that it's not worth the effort to duplicate something that cost me about $15.

But, you bet, when I'm considering new and expensive synths that I think about whether I feel that they're covering ground that I can easily replicate with Reaktor. As much as I like Urs stuff, for example, I don't see anything special in Zebra. He's not pushing filter technology like in Diva or RePro 1, it's not truly modular like Bazille or Ace. To me, that's the kind of synth that I don't bother with for $200 because I already have Reaktor.

I'll give you another example. I spent more money than I would usually spend on any plugin on Verb3. I'm super happy with it. "I" can't get Reaktor to sound like Verb3, but, that doesn't mean that with the right research and effort that it isn't possible, just that it isn't practical. Also, for almost any algorithm that you can replicate in Reaktor, you will use much more CPU than you will with native code.

Finally, with respect to most synths, I feel that Reaktor covers that ground just fine and what you're hearing is just an artifact of particular choices in development. If those choices matter to you, and, it's more challenging to program them than it is to just buy the synth, then there you go, but, I have my doubts that such perception would hold up in blind tests.

[V0RT3X]

One thing I've noticed Reaktor lacks, is multi-core processing which is why some ensembles will use up so much CPU so quickly. This is Reaktors achilles heel, when other dedicated synthesizers are heavily optimized.

It's not a deal breaker, but it does mean you will have to freeze more with Reaktor.

[wagtunes]

@ghetto

Thank you for that explanation. I actually understood it.

So Reaktor COULD sound like just about anything depending on the skill level of the person using it to create the synth. So my hearing what, IMO, is essentially the same sound out of most ensembles (Monark and maybe a couple others being exceptions) is simply out of either laziness or lack of that skill.

And that is the problem I have with Reaktor in general. Very few people have really come out with instruments that really impress me both sound wise and feature wise.

[ghettosynth]

One thing I've noticed Reaktor lacks, is multi-core processing which is why some ensembles will use up so much CPU so quickly. This is Reaktors achilles heel, when other dedicated synthesizers are heavily optimized.

It's not a deal breaker, but it does mean you will have to freeze more with Reaktor.

Absolutely, and, AFAIK, this really isn't a generally solvable problem, so it will probably always be that way.