TMA: Live vs Bitwig (late 2016 edition) vs wild card?

[.jon]

I will add, however, that I am in utter awe that Live does not have a proper "bounce in place" mechanism, though I do no there are somewhat sluggish workarounds for this shortcoming. They have the amazing new Simpler yet no BIP. That's crazy.

I'd guess this is due to the monotype tracks, can't have both audio and MIDI on the same tracks.

The workarounds (duplicate track-freeze-flatten for whole track, or freeze track-drag&drop the MIDI clip to an audio track-unfreeze track, or resample (record) time selection on an audio track) could be sluggish depending on your needs, but at least so far work fine for my purposes. I don't see immediate use for having sections of audio on a VSTi track tbh, I use the freeze-drag-unfreeze method which is really fast for bouncing short sections to audio tracks.

What could be neat is if we could drag&drop MIDI clips straight to Simpler, and Live would do the rendering on the fly

[iPlogger]

But but, 8 tracks only, wot are you hi m8, 2016??? Well, there's a catch, busses don't count, and you can have layers inside tracks So below is the template I've built, and for the moment I can't imagine how these "limitations" would be real limitations for producing the music I want to.

.jon, can you explain this a bit more? Thanks. I'm looking at getting a new DAW and Ableton has features I want. But maybe I can get by with Standard. I basically use my DAW by having a VSTi on each track and assign MIDI channels. Then I use my keyboard controller to play the VSTi I want. I have some layers that can be three, four or more tracks. For example two Alchemy, a Synthmaster and Omnisphere layer. Are you saying I can use just a single track and layer all of these? That would be fantastic.

My largest project is 21 tracks, but if I can consolidate things I can bring it below 16.

I've been trying different demos so I hope to try out Ableton soon.

[.jon]

Standard is the full version with no limitations (Suite just adds M4L and more content = plugins and samples). I'm talking about Live Lite, a free, limited version that comes bundled with various gadgets.

Layering VSTis is really easy and neat, just pull an Instrument Rack on a track and drag your synths there. It's basically a container for parallel synth+FX chains, very easy to manage and also shows up in the mixer. All receive the same MIDI, but you can of course automate the rack mixer and each synth parameter separately.

[iPlogger]

I just realized I meant Intro, not Standard, and was going to post that just now. Thanks so much for the information.

[iPlogger]

Thanks again .jon. I tried out the demo last night and I think Intro's 16 track limitation will work for me. I don't particularly like how Ableton uses multi-timbral synths (you have to create separate tracks for each MIDI channel) so I may need to re-do some of my Omnisphere Multis. But I've never even come close to using up all 16 MIDI channels for any of my live projects so 16 tracks should be fine for now.

I have actually been trying out Bitwig as well and along with what was said earlier, I am finding the info online for Ableton way more helpful. I never actually got very far with the Bitwig demo whereas in less than an hour with Ableton I had multiple tracks on different MIDI channels and was playing back clips.

My concern with Ableton is the GUI. It seems small and cluttered. Also, I am on a Windows touchscreen, and the small controls make it more difficult to use.

[Studio Saturn]

I have tried Live several times just to like it every time a new version came up I tried and still didn't like it. Up until I tried Bitwig. I just clicked with this DAW and everything is in front of me. less time thinking how to do it a more time creating music. I have to say this, I really, really, loved it. and immediately bought it on eBay. It is very inspiring for MIDI production. I'm just a baby beginner of Bitwig I finally got a DAW which I love for writing. Mixing is always done in Mixbus32c. It would have been great if Bitwig had a dedicated forum but still this DAW is amazing. For Linux, Mac and Windows I couldn't ask for more. Thank you Bitwig Developers.

I had one disappointment while I was trying the Demo, there was no option of saving my project and I lost several baby creation with the inability to save. I would much prefer to save and not to open it until I buy the license.

[malachy5]

Lots of good points here, I use both and they both have strengths and weaknesses. Modulation in Bitwig is amazing, the DAW becomes a kind of meta instrument. I've never needed to try cross track modulation so I don't miss that. Full polyphonic aftertouch is beautifully implemented in Bitwig, that's something I miss in Ableton, esp with some new synths able to max good use of that. Bitwig is way better with internal audio routing, side-chaining is a breeze. In Ableton I find I need to work around, either make duplicate tracks to provide side-chain pulse or bus all the elements I want ducked, it can drop me out of the flow while I do the plumbing, Bitwig I just select the source and that's it.

Neither do VST3 support so if you plan on things like Roland Plugouts then they won't work, Bitwig is pretty good with bridging 32bit plugins though. Both have great included instruments and FX but I think Ableton edges it: Simpler is great, Operator and Analog are still really good and there are top notch FX from Cytomic built in, the filters and the Glue are very useful additions.

Another +ve for Live is Link, works great and has huge support from iOS community, being able to easily sync up a phone and iPad is really useful. Korg's Gadget will also output a Live project so that makes another great workflow. I think Patterning does the same.

Edit to add: Sometime Bitwig have great partner deals like $50 off voucher for U-he so that helps!
I tend to use Live more and a big part of that has been the amount of material out there that teaches you how to use it, that's a big factor for me, I'm only learning and don't have much time but using Live means I don't have to translate the steps in tutorials etc. and there are a ton of packs, projects, instruments and other stuff built for Ableton. You could do fine with just Ableton and free stuff.

[xbitz]

Neither do VST3 support so if you plan on things like Roland Plugouts then they won't work,

Polac VST Loaders can create transparent Waves like VST2 wrapper around your VST3 plugins http://www.xlutop.com/buzz/ tried with some VST3 and it was worked for me

[Trancit]

In general I like Bitwig much better than Live... lot´s of great ideas in there...

Nevertheless I find it a real pity that they wasted so much time to implement all these touch nonsense before getting the basics right...
That´s for me the complete wrong set of priorities...

Bitwig is still lacking of so many essentials... even if many people disagree: it is a Live Clone but for me, the most essential parts they forgot to clone and did many things different...

Imho, what Live did absolutely right was the feature set of instruments and effects and the way to control them:
- a biggie for me: neither mousewheel nor keyboard support to change device parameters... only mouse drag is not acceptable to control (fine control) devices nowadays...
even the cheapest or oldest hosts offer at least one of them...

-an absolutely genius feature of many Live FX is the filter on top... I think I used nothing else that much than these filters... easy to use with one handle and so helpful... nothing like that in Bitwig...

- no crossfade for Loops in Bitwig´s Sampler...

- no spectrum view in the EQ in Bitwig instead of that a for me useless 2 band version...
...

you get the idea... it´s really a pity and I don´t know, if I like to settle on the future regarding the update pace and priorities they showed til now...

[pdxindy]

True there are some things in Live that I miss when I use Bitwig... but there are also things in Bitwig that make it painful to switch to Live (I use both).

Bitwig modulation is much better... Every device has macro knobs. They are fast and it's easy to set up modulation ranges. There is the ability to nest devices and you can control the macros of multiple devices with other knobs (making macro macros). The ability to nest devices 'inside' other devices signal path. For example, you can put a distortion and/or filter inside the feedback path of the delay. It is a great sound design landscape! And all so easy and visual.

Hybrid tracks are easy to get used to... and they allow ability to bounce in place. I use this feature all the time. Got a long midi clip and just want to say reverse the audio of one note? It takes seconds and needs only 1 track and the rest of the midi is still midi.

Audio editing in clips... multiple audio events can be in one clip and you can do a variety of edits right in the clip...

Ability to open multiple projects. I use this all the time.

The Bitwig editor and ability to layer and edit multiple clips, overlay clips, edit while viewing multiple tracks etc. Editor can be full screen.

Automation is more flexible in Bitwig with the ability to add/multiply via clip automation, snap automation points to grid, set numeric values, and use the histogram on selected points.

The histograms... want to add some random velocity variation to a selected bunch of midi notes? Easy (try doing it in Live)... or micro pitch variation? sure

Which brings me to the MPE support. It is excellent in Bitwig and non-existent in Live. For me, this is important enough that Live is in the back seat. This is such powerful expressive functionality.

Everyone has their needs and priorities.

[LLCoolJeans]

I use both but I LOVE Bitwig compared to Live (and other DAWs)

I'm all about speed. Working with Bitwig feels natural, working in Ableton feels like playing with sticky legos: You get everything where it needs to go, but it doesn't feel too nice and takes a bit longer than it should.

I only use Live for my live act because Bitwig's clip launcher doesn't work quite like Live's... I use the clip launcher in Live basically as a sampler with no quantize or anything. There isn't a way that I've found to get passed the looping stuff that the performance mode is designed for in Bitwig. Once Bitwig can launch clips just like a sampler I will be uninstalling Live.

[Echoes in the Attic]

I can point to a handful of things that individually would prevent me from going back to Live. That is, if Bitwig had only one of these features over Live I'd not go back:
-Proper PDC
-MPE support (or even Polyphonics aftertouch support)
-Multi-out devices (processing of separate outputs within a single device)
-Hybrid tracks/bounce in place
-Device parameter configuration
-Midi goes to all devices on a track (ie can go to midi controlled fx and a subsequent instrument in the chain)
-Multi-touch mode
-Arrangement look (like traditional DAWs) with simultaneous clip launcher

And then these ones taken together would make it hard to go back as well:
-Multiple audio regions in clips (cut, rearrange)
-Browser (all samples in folders listed, preset handling with VSTs, tags). In place browser
-Plug-ins sandboxed (don't crash host, just reload)
-Feedback effects in devices
-Send anything anywhere with routing devices
-Send and master track clips
-Scripting community

[Trancit]

Nevertheless are these all "nice to have"... I am pretty sure you had been able to work without these for years...

On the other hand i.e. the timestretch in Bitwig is (for me) ridiculous...
I made a little comparison yesterday and even with smaller tempo changes it was sounding more than bad compared to many others...
The grainyness and ringing on i.e. hihats with tempo changes of - 5 to 8 bpm was incredible noticeable... that´s a real showstopper to me... and it seems I am not alone if I have a look at the bitwig subforum...

[pdxindy]

Nevertheless are these all "nice to have"... I am pretty sure you had been able to work without these for years...

On the other hand i.e. the timestretch in Bitwig is (for me) ridiculous...
I made a little comparison yesterday and even with smaller tempo changes it was sounding more than bad compared to many others...
The grainyness and ringing on i.e. hihats with tempo changes of - 5 to 8 bpm was incredible noticeable... that´s a real showstopper to me... and it seems I am not alone if I have a look at the bitwig subforum...

Yeah, the time stretching on Bitwig sucks... fortunately for me, I pretty much never use it anyway

[.jon]

Glorious KVR doublepost, see next post