Roli Seaboard RISE

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pdxindy wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
Sorry, but the Seaboard rise is not nearly as expressive as 3D touch on a freking smartphone (yes, beside velocity)!!!
Let's see someone do this on their phone! (not a chance)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh-hzbG5FzI
Of course that is another thing.

I believe you with the bugginess and your general assessment... nevertheless, the Rise is still beautifully expressive.

I don't know how slow a slide you want to do... but in the hour I spent at the shop playing the Rise49, it did not seem to be a problem to do a slide up say an octave... I did notice that it took some practice to get the result I wanted. I expect some learning curve and training in its use.

I've still held off from a purchase, waiting for the reports of bugs to improve...
Sure you can make slides but not as smooth as a theremin (which is possible with 3D touch).
When i move my finger very slowly from one note to another i clearly can hear a jump rather than a smooth pitch. I also can hear it with faster long glides. Even on 100%. When i put the glide under 60% it's really not so nice while the app gives me a really nice smooth slope.
It's a kind of micro stepping but i wish it could do better.
But the different is huge! It's like the Seaboard always quantize to at least an 1/4 note or so. It's sometimes very useful but i would like to had an option to turn that off to go into microtonal things. But i think it's not possible due to the hardware is build i think. If yes it would be nice for an update!

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Cinebient wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
Sorry, but the Seaboard rise is not nearly as expressive as 3D touch on a freking smartphone (yes, beside velocity)!!!
Let's see someone do this on their phone! (not a chance)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh-hzbG5FzI
Of course that is another thing.

I believe you with the bugginess and your general assessment... nevertheless, the Rise is still beautifully expressive.

I don't know how slow a slide you want to do... but in the hour I spent at the shop playing the Rise49, it did not seem to be a problem to do a slide up say an octave... I did notice that it took some practice to get the result I wanted. I expect some learning curve and training in its use.

I've still held off from a purchase, waiting for the reports of bugs to improve...
Sure you can make slides but not as smooth as a theremin (which is possible with 3D touch).
When i move my finger very slowly from one note to another i clearly can hear a jump rather than a smooth pitch. I also can hear it with faster long glides. Even on 100%. When i put the glide under 60% it's really not so nice while the app gives me a really nice smooth slope.
It's a kind of micro stepping but i wish it could do better.
But the different is huge! It's like the Seaboard always quantize to at least an 1/4 note or so. It's sometimes very useful but i would like to had an option to turn that off to go into microtonal things. But i think it's not possible due to the hardware is build i think. If yes it would be nice for an update!
I don't exactly have golden ears (and they seem to be getting less golden by the day!) but I didn't hear any of the stairstepping that you're describing. Were you playing Equator, Noise, or some other synth? What did you have your bend range set to?
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

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deastman wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
pdxindy wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
Sorry, but the Seaboard rise is not nearly as expressive as 3D touch on a freking smartphone (yes, beside velocity)!!!
Let's see someone do this on their phone! (not a chance)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh-hzbG5FzI
Of course that is another thing.

I believe you with the bugginess and your general assessment... nevertheless, the Rise is still beautifully expressive.

I don't know how slow a slide you want to do... but in the hour I spent at the shop playing the Rise49, it did not seem to be a problem to do a slide up say an octave... I did notice that it took some practice to get the result I wanted. I expect some learning curve and training in its use.

I've still held off from a purchase, waiting for the reports of bugs to improve...
Sure you can make slides but not as smooth as a theremin (which is possible with 3D touch).
When i move my finger very slowly from one note to another i clearly can hear a jump rather than a smooth pitch. I also can hear it with faster long glides. Even on 100%. When i put the glide under 60% it's really not so nice while the app gives me a really nice smooth slope.
It's a kind of micro stepping but i wish it could do better.
But the different is huge! It's like the Seaboard always quantize to at least an 1/4 note or so. It's sometimes very useful but i would like to had an option to turn that off to go into microtonal things. But i think it's not possible due to the hardware is build i think. If yes it would be nice for an update!
I don't exactly have golden ears (and they seem to be getting less golden by the day!) but I didn't hear any of the stairstepping that you're describing. Were you playing Equator, Noise, or some other synth? What did you have your bend range set to?
It´s very decent but it´s there. There also was a review (sadly don´t remember which site is was) where this was mentioned too.
It´s not like it´s terrible sounding but when you compare it you can hear it.....at least i can :D
I tryed it with the Noise app with the same settings and also with Equator and some other synths.
It´s there.
Edit: Maybe i should make a few demo sounds if i have time.
It´s best noticable if i move slowly from one note to the next semi and turning the glide slowly up to 100%.
Doing the same on my iPhone sounds very different (better to my taste).
On the Seaboard it sounds always like a square wave, even when nearly at 100% while it sounds on the iphone more like going from a square wave to a much smoother sine in the higher range.
But even make my own settings on the glide in Equator doesn´t change that really.
I wish the dashboard would let me customize it much more to my needs. It´s very limited too. (and buggy)
Bad description.... my english is still a bit poor!
It doesn´t matter if i do it via usb or bluetooth (which is also still not usable due to disconnections every few minutes).

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Ive been hearing the same thing about quantisation from a few places recently.
this video shows it pretty clearly around 3 mins in (on the original seaboard) , by comparing it to the continuum. (fantastic video by a very talented musician)

of course, this doesn't prevent very expressive/moving music being played on a seaboard, there are some fantastic pieces out there. musicians make the most of what they have :)

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thetechnobear wrote:Ive been hearing the same thing about quantisation from a few places recently.
this video shows it pretty clearly around 3 mins in (on the original seaboard) , by comparing it to the continuum. (fantastic video by a very talented musician)

of course, this doesn't prevent very expressive/moving music being played on a seaboard, there are some fantastic pieces out there. musicians make the most of what they have :)
Yep, this is what i mean. It's THE major bummer for me with the Seaboard. Glides sounding not very natural.

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Cinebient wrote:
thetechnobear wrote:Ive been hearing the same thing about quantisation from a few places recently.
this video shows it pretty clearly around 3 mins in (on the original seaboard) , by comparing it to the continuum. (fantastic video by a very talented musician)

of course, this doesn't prevent very expressive/moving music being played on a seaboard, there are some fantastic pieces out there. musicians make the most of what they have :)
Yep, this is what i mean. It's THE major bummer for me with the Seaboard. Glides sounding not very natural.
on the Soundplane, if you have quantising ON, then you get a quite similar effect... and its actually controllable by the 'portamento' setting.

I think the 'issue' with quantisation is it has a few dimensions to it:
- do you want to quantise on initial touch? (if so how much)
- when you release, do you want the final value quantised (as you have no control over it, for the release tail)
- when you do vibrato, do you want it to return back to a quantised value when you stop?
- when you do a slide, do you want it to quantise when you stop sliding?

on the Soundplane its this last one, that I think leads to this subtle stepping - it has no idea when the slide stops (without inducing latency) so it actually glides from note to note. it is very subtle.

Its no issue on the Soundplane, as you have some control over it, which means you can adjust it depending on the piece AND you can turn it off entirely.

I only really 'understood' the effect properly when I started playing with quantisation off, as you find the patch does sound different with quantisation on and off. (I guess due to the way you are constantly adjusting the pitch by ear, or perhaps I'm just bad at it :) ) - you can hear it in the above video - but its more obvious on the same instrument playing the same patch.

I think this is the reason the Continuum has a number of controls governing quantisation at patch level, rather than a simple slider, to capture these different nuances of quantisation.

so I wonder/hope, perhaps Roli have just over simplified it... and perhaps its not a hardware issue.

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thetechnobear wrote:
Cinebient wrote:
thetechnobear wrote:Ive been hearing the same thing about quantisation from a few places recently.
this video shows it pretty clearly around 3 mins in (on the original seaboard) , by comparing it to the continuum. (fantastic video by a very talented musician)

of course, this doesn't prevent very expressive/moving music being played on a seaboard, there are some fantastic pieces out there. musicians make the most of what they have :)
Yep, this is what i mean. It's THE major bummer for me with the Seaboard. Glides sounding not very natural.
on the Soundplane, if you have quantising ON, then you get a quite similar effect... and its actually controllable by the 'portamento' setting.

I think the 'issue' with quantisation is it has a few dimensions to it:
- do you want to quantise on initial touch? (if so how much)
- when you release, do you want the final value quantised (as you have no control over it, for the release tail)
- when you do vibrato, do you want it to return back to a quantised value when you stop?
- when you do a slide, do you want it to quantise when you stop sliding?

on the Soundplane its this last one, that I think leads to this subtle stepping - it has no idea when the slide stops (without inducing latency) so it actually glides from note to note. it is very subtle.

Its no issue on the Soundplane, as you have some control over it, which means you can adjust it depending on the piece AND you can turn it off entirely.

I only really 'understood' the effect properly when I started playing with quantisation off, as you find the patch does sound different with quantisation on and off. (I guess due to the way you are constantly adjusting the pitch by ear, or perhaps I'm just bad at it :) ) - you can hear it in the above video - but its more obvious on the same instrument playing the same patch.

I think this is the reason the Continuum has a number of controls governing quantisation at patch level, rather than a simple slider, to capture these different nuances of quantisation.

so I wonder/hope, perhaps Roli have just over simplified it... and perhaps its not a hardware issue.
I ask the support and the answer was that there is no quantization baked in the hardware. It might be a matter of how you play with some suggestions how to make it more smooth.
I will see what i can do. At least it should be possible in theory then. Good to know!

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Cinebient wrote:I ask the support and the answer was that there is no quantization baked in the hardware. It might be a matter of how you play with some suggestions how to make it more smooth.
I will see what i can do. At least it should be possible in theory then. Good to know!
yeah, i guess the fear by some is it sensor resolution...

unfortunately, Roli are very 'secretive' about the Seaboard, giving out very little information about the technology, or even what their software does exactly. Id be interested to know exactly what their glide sensitivity does, given as I mentioned quantisation is multi faceted.

but, at the end of the day though, its still a very expressive controller... as has been proved by many.

I also have an Eigenharp, which is an expressive controller but not continuous, but in no way do I consider it inferior to my Soundplane (or Continuum etc) , its just different... it has its strengths (e.g. responsiveness) and also its own kind of expressivity - which makes it far more suitable for some pieces that the Soundplane.

Similarly the Soundplane, is fantastic for some pieces, but not very good if you want to play it as a piano ;)

all of the controllers (expressive controllers, iPads, keyboards included) have their compromises... so unsurprisingly the Seaboard is no different.

try to embrace, and enjoy it for what it is , rather than what its not.
(I know easier said than done... and something I had to 'learn the hard way' :))

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thetechnobear wrote:
Cinebient wrote:I ask the support and the answer was that there is no quantization baked in the hardware. It might be a matter of how you play with some suggestions how to make it more smooth.
I will see what i can do. At least it should be possible in theory then. Good to know!
yeah, i guess the fear by some is it sensor resolution...

unfortunately, Roli are very 'secretive' about the Seaboard, giving out very little information about the technology, or even what their software does exactly. Id be interested to know exactly what their glide sensitivity does, given as I mentioned quantisation is multi faceted.

but, at the end of the day though, its still a very expressive controller... as has been proved by many.

I also have an Eigenharp, which is an expressive controller but not continuous, but in no way do I consider it inferior to my Soundplane (or Continuum etc) , its just different... it has its strengths (e.g. responsiveness) and also its own kind of expressivity - which makes it far more suitable for some pieces that the Soundplane.

Similarly the Soundplane, is fantastic for some pieces, but not very good if you want to play it as a piano ;)

all of the controllers (expressive controllers, iPads, keyboards included) have their compromises... so unsurprisingly the Seaboard is no different.

try to embrace, and enjoy it for what it is , rather than what its not.
(I know easier said than done... and something I had to 'learn the hard way' :))
I ask for the theoretical resolution between 2 semitones...hope i get a clear answer soon.
I also asked if it's possible to get an initial microtonal pitch between the western scale which i also seems not be able to achieve (maybe a user fault).
What i also not understand why there is no deeper native editing in the dashboard for microtonal or other non western scales. Even with the layout of a piano it would be usable. It's bound to the 12 note per octave western scale which is a bit limited especially since the device is made to imitate also all kinds of stringed or blowed instruments etc.
So let me do those 106 notes per octave thing :)
Why not?!

Edit: Since the glide should offer 14 bit midi (not sure if that counts for the other dimensions as well) resolution...so 16384 values or 8192 up or down) it should be all possible.....in theory at least :)

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To add something more i agree that there is not enough info about the tech.
I don't know if the sliders or other dimensions work with 14 bit midi?!? I hope so.
Have to figure it out. Damn, Roli is like Apple. Putting some good looking things into the market but not providing all the info about the tech i want to know.
I was a bit too hyped to buy it blind.....lesson learned.......maybe! :D

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You know how these things go... you were an early adopter... in a year or two will come Rise v2 :-)

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pdxindy wrote:You know how these things go... you were an early adopter... in a year or two will come Rise v2 :-)
Sure :D

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Tired of waiting without a solution from Roli, I have returned to the store and I have bought a Haken Continuum

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The new firmware update for the Rise 25 seems to have cured the sticky and random notes for me. Still checking for any anomolies but are there any other things people have noticed?
Ilk

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With regards to the glide:

It's all about the right technique. If you slide off a keywave, and then glide alongside it, just below the keywave, almost touching it, you will hear 'bumps' as you glide simply because you are catching the keywaves. But if you move and position your finger in the middle of the ribbon then the glide should be very smooth. Also, set the glide fader on the RISE to 100%, don't set it to less than that while performing the glide gesture and at the same time pushing the fader to 100%, like written here:
It´s best noticable if i move slowly from one note to the next semi and turning the glide slowly up to 100%.
Set the glide fader to 100% for no quantisation. Any setting below will give you varying degrees of note rounding. And make sure that the fader is set to 100%. Sometimes you may think you pushed the fader all the way up, but it will just stop short of the max value, which will be enough to set the RISE into the 'note rounding' mode.

Another thing concerns how you perform the actual glide gesture with your finger. Don't push but pull. It's very important to get a smooth glide response. If you push up/down with your thumb or pointing finger you will get stuck against the grain of the silicone. But if you pull, the glide will be effortless and will give you a smooth response/sound.

These new type of instruments based on poly-pitch (RISE, Continuum, Linstrumnet, etc) all need the right playing technique to get the best out of.
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design
3D/5D sound design since 2012

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