Imitone -- wow! Most embarassing post I ever started

[musikmachine]

I've read a few of the posts and have been turned off from imitone as a potential customer and was all set to buy it from watching the some recent demo videos.

I didn't know what midi was when i started out but i soon learned as it's an integral part of music production. I'm not a great keys player but i use it everyday. Also what if they want to use an Arp or map some CCs?

So does imitone just require a virtual midi port then and you set the input in you're midi track? Is it a pain to use in practice; good for getting ideas down?

What i want to do is use a pitch to midi converter to 'jam' with my voice over tracks, humming, whistling whatever and record the midi or audio to a track, i've also this idea to use a hothand usb to send midi to the plugin or live maybe to create a new clip to record into etc. The other use is if i have an idea and i want to capture it quickly, i've got recordings on my phone i'd like to turn into melodies.

So what would the best option be? Thanks!

[Compyfox]

I sadly have to back the people that spoke before. At this point, "Imitone" is way over the head of Evan Balster. He shouldn't be a one man army doing the research & development, programming, the promotion and the customer support. He falls into the very same trap like so many developers before him - something falls short, then the blame game begins and it's down to finger pointing. We had some very bad examples like in the last 10 years on KVR alone.

In fact, the last two posts by Balster (interactopia) is more than a clear sign to stay away from the company at this point (IMO!), which is sad. Half of the posts in here are asking for a refund, for "damage control". And if you have to do that as company, you've messed up - big time. Of course another alternative is just to remain as quiet, play the turtle, grab your money and run. The tone in feedback won't change (it can only get harsher). Or you could just deliver as promised - do damage control, and hope for the best (change of heart in commentary).


Let's take a look at the Kickstarter campaign again.

• it started on 14th March 2014, at this stage "Imitone" was already in a presentable state and more than usable at trade shows.
• the project was fully funded (from initially required 20k USD) on 18th March 2014 - within 4 days! After the campaign was over, the Kickstarter accumulated 90517USD. Cut away about 15% for taxes and fees, and we have a final finance plan of about 76900USD (not counting additional PayPal donations!) for legal fees/patents, maybe paying third parties, and the rest for the development (the CEO)
• the project was presented at various trade shows (among them, A3E and the NAMM - several years in row!), as fully working product, inclusive "multi-timbral" usability
• the project was talked about on BBC, TechHive, Gizmodo, c|net, ars technica, Gigazine and also various magazine outlets - so the project caught a lot(!) of attention
• The stretch goals were as following
  • $20,000 (HIT!) -- Funding Goal Met!
  • $30,000 (HIT!!) -- Automatic scale detection (all versions)
  • $40,000 (HIT!!!) -- Percussion mode (all versions)
  • $60,000 (GO!) -- VST plugin version! (imitone and imitone prime)
  • $75,000 (BLAM!) -- iOS version
  • $90,000 (LAST HOURS!) -- Android version
  From those goals, it seems only the "automatic scale detection" was implemented (yet the page implies tha tit wasn't!), we've yet to see a VST Plugin version (goal clearly exceeded) and as Android user, I've also yet to see an Android version, not to mention iOS app.

Among the risks, the following was stated

...

For that reason I've waited until now, when imitone is nearly complete, to tell the world. At this point it just needs a lot of testing, tweaking and polish -- and I'll admit, that last 10% takes more than its fair share of time! But short of my sudden incapacitation or intervention by a patent troll, there's very little that could hamper that process.

imitone prime will take longer to complete as its interface will be much more complex, but the underlying logic is already functional. Several of its features, including polyphony and noise cancellation, are experimental at this time. For that reason I can't make guarantees about the quality of these features -- but I fully intend to keep working my magic!

The important bits are in bold - or in other words (and as mentioned): the software has always been ready, in fact since the start of the Kickstart campaign (it was shown fully working at trade shows after all), yet according to the developer now... it's still in "Research and Development" (as written in the Kickstarter log, and here on KVR.



To add further insult, on one of the biggest audio tool related boards (aside from GearSlutz), the developer wrote this:

Further remarks on the plugin: It was irresponsible of me to make that promise. I was way too eager to please people here, and it was bad prioritization.

With many arguments why he thinks that his tool is "for the wrong market". And to put even more salt in the wounds, he now "recommends" users to rather get a refund (which is only hurting the company on the long run), and go with the 99USD expensive MIDI Guitar 2 plugin by Jam Origin, or the free MiGiC by Migic Music.


That... is really bad! I mean... it is not my company - but it is apparent that Mr Balster has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of the audio industry as a whole. Gaming industry, maybe. But not the audio tool industry. And I though that "audio" for games these days has the same significance as soundtracks for movies. Looks like I'm mistaken.



I mean, let's look at the paragraphs here:

Reason one: imitone has always been aimed at a more general market than the pro-audio culture represented here. It's not a replacement for other audio-to-MIDI technology because it's aimed at people who might not even know what MIDI is. I've avoided spelling this out, but it reflects in the website, the design, the language I use---everything. And it reflects in my strategy: The technical bar for imitone is much higher for this amateur audience than it is for people here, because when imitone makes a mistake they think well, I'm just not good at this. Priority one is building the world's most user-friendly instrument; priority two is maximizing that instrument's potential. My current work is pushing firmly in both directions.

This is just wrong thinking IMO - and here is why.

These days, if people want to get into making music, they can easily grab a host off of the web. Freeware, or Magware or whatever. But soon these people realize "wait, I want to record my guitar - I need a microphone". So they go out and buy one - or a "care free package" - an ADC and Mic in one bundle. And most of the time these bundles come with bonus deals (read: a host), or the OS already has a host installed (Macintosh especially). In other words, people buy "all-in-one" solutions, things that get you going instantly and you're bombed with freeware and also video tutorials on how to use these tools. Though a lot of them are pretty much self-explanatory these days as well.

And what does Evan Balster want to do?

Sell a standalone tool, with virtual audio and MIDI drivers that need to be properly routed and setup, before people can even use it. Why? Because it's "more user friendly for those that don't understand MIDI". On top of that, it ultimately locks out the audio device with certain hosts. Especially on Windows. You can not(!) expect users to run on Macintosh only where the driver topography is different. And if we talk "Macintosh", we don't talk general market anymore.

People BUY a Mac because of it's "ease of use" (sometimes just as mere prestige object), but most of the time because of design work, video work and audio tools. Why? Because of the big 4 companies (Apple, Steinberg, AVID, Presonus). So we're already talking several hundred USD/EUR just for the rig.

Add to that, the "care free package" that is thrown at you these days... 350USD and you get a 4i/o ADC, a large membrane microphone and a set of decent headphones, plus a host in LE form, a handful of plugins/instruments and free access to host tutorials.

Yet the developer asks for "extra setup" - again "because it's simpler" - this doesn't make any sense at all.

Reason two: Around February I tried out Midi Guitar with my voice, and other than my gripes with its scale mechanism I found it basically comparable with 0.8.1---meaning an imitone-like VST already existed. Based on my experience it's easily the best real-time pitch to MIDI outside of imitone, so you have my encouragement to buy it instead! (It even has a voice preset, if I remember correctly. Props to Ole and friends for eight years of hard work.)

That is the biggest red flag about the company.

The dev just indirectly said "you know what, if you're impatient - f*ck off and go to the competition - here, have your money back!". With this subtone, it is clear to me that the developer simply does not care. He wants to have "perfection", he wants to have the best tool there is, he wants to finish it first before "selling it" to the masses.

The thing is...
a) it's already finished and usable(!)
b) no tool on the market will ever be flawless/perfect or finished - especially not as one-man-army independent developer
c) he got paid 3,5 times over for this

Yet he did not deliver what has been promised so far. And that's been (most notably) a VST version (that the developer still refuses to port - and he said several times that it only "sets him back" 2 weeks max!), and the portable device versions (iOS and Android).



In fact, he even realizes that a stand alone version is more hassle than it should be worth with this very same paragraph:

Now I do realize the standalone routing is a huge pain (or even a show-stopper) when it comes to a studio setup, and I'm not going to wait until the end of the beta to do the portwork---that would be an awful mistake. But I have my priorities, and I'm sticking to them: Get the technology to a point where I feel like I'd use it for serious composition. 0.8.2 gets surprisingly close to that, and the new tech I'm planning promises to be a much bigger improvement.

In fact, in the follow up post, he admits once more that a VST version would make the most sense - but he's not porting it, because "reasons" (insecurity, R&D has more priority, things have to be perfect)

Routing with the standalone is a pain in a studio setup where the user wants to use a single low-latency recording interface for recording and output, and simultaneously enable audio recording in their DAW and pitch tracking in imitone. In this case, VST is the superior format because it averts issues with device exclusivity or stream-fighting.

- Hallelujah!


However, the "argument" for the standalone version is still:

To set up VST, the user needs to create tracks for imitone and the instrument and routings between them. Depending on the DAW, changing imitone will probably require these routings to be manually revised or changed with some kind of shortcut.

As to the user who doesn't know what MIDI is: They can open imitone, followed by their DAW. imitone gets priority on the recording device, and the only DAW set-up is selecting imitone as the MIDI input (which is automatic in many cases). At that point, the user clicks on an instrument and sings; no routing required. The key idea here is that the novice user can get on their feet in minutes without needing to know much about their DAW---and a great many of my users are trying to use imitone to take their first steps.

Balster implies with these two paragraphs, that users are too stupid to setup a host. A VST version is really so much simpler than his "standalone" routing which ultimately blocks out the recording device. And I've messed a couple of times with "standalone audio in -> MIDI out tools" - maybe it's that simple on a Mac, definitely not on Windows.

Anyway - if people buy care-free-packages, they learn their tools within a short period of time. Or these people are already using(!) their tools for a while and look for something like "Voice to MIDI". So this already is(!) an advanced topic, but for all types of users, average, semi-pro, professional studio users and stage performers.

Why does this need to be "dumbed down"? You treat us users like video gamers that look for Shell Enhancement tools for strategy games, yet state "this is not for you - you're already pro's at this, look for something else - this is aimed at beginners... Look! Shiny colors and buttons!".

That is kind of insulting if I'm totally honest with you.



Once more - the project/tool has been usable since 14th March 2014, it was presented at various trade shows (NAMM of all places!), the "beta" is running fairly stable - and the Kickstarter page even mentions all that. It wasn't a wireframe animation, pre-render or still image in the background - it was a working module! And your videos clearly showed that as well.


Why the heck is it so hard to swallow ones ego and just do as it was promised and paid for?!

As mentioned in the recent posts (from me via Twitter and Mail as well!):

• a VST version would simplify things (mic in via the host, only one DAC in use, no extra "shitty mic" needed, settings saved per project, etc)
• a VST version means no extra baggage (like OS specific drivers) and difficult routing is required (aimed at "beginners"; yet not a beginners tool to setup!)
• a VST version beta would mean more and better coverage in terms of tests (which would speed up things drastically!)

We do not ask for outdated formats (RTAS) or some crazy VST3 sidechain capability. Just a simple VST2 plugin version with MIDI out for the Windows platform, an AAX plugin for ProTools and an AU version for Logic. All of them in x64 only. Three plugins. Or go the route like Musiclab and IK Multimedia goes - one global libraries/tools folder and the DLLs only link to that (read: they are basically a low filesize shell).

Worried about tutorials? People might create that for you in text form or video form - that is also free promo. Else, users of ProTools, Logic, Cubase, Nuendo, Studio One, Live, FLStudio, Reaper... you name it... they already know how routing works - these users jumped on to a specific host just because of the usability (or because it came bundled with the OS). And it's really mostly only just two mouse clicks and no extra running task in the background of your DAW.


And of course, there are the iOS and Android users that backed you just because of a possible port. You must address them as well!

Regarding costs and side projects, no; imitone is basically my sole income and I don't put much time into anything else other than SoundSelf---and even that has demanded only a few weeks since February. I live on about $1000-1500 a month; by far most of my expenses have been from exhibition, legal fees and taxes. I completely acknowledge that putting a VST out sooner would boost sales, but I don't need the extra income.

First and foremost - we don't need those pieces of information, as this only cuts into your own flesh. We only care that you got 90k for the whole thing (in reality 76k after taxes, PayPal donations extra), and that you seem to waste the money on excuses for your so called, still needed R&D.

However, now that you mentioned that - this paragraph is adding fuel to the fire, it clearly shows that you messed up. This money was never for trade shows/exhibitions (it should have been mentioned in the finance plan if that was the case!), and we already assumed that you covered all legal fees/patents as it was hinted at (what is that - 5k max?). So let's say, in the end you only have 50k at your disposal (tax/fees subtracted already). Now let's take that through 28 months since the Kickstarter campaign. That is still 1780USD/month - yet you merely delivered maintenance updates and even more excuses!

And you're surprised about the criticism?!




Honestly... I was keeping an eye on Imitone in recent months - even put money aside several times (there are always maintenance upgrade needed in the studio). I was even offering my services as Beta Tester, or write a positive article about that tool (which would have been posted on one of the many audio realm news platforms). You declined(!) because you said "it's not ready yet, I'd rather not" - yet it has been ready since March 2014.

Honestly, what is going on?!

How can someone be so enthusiastic about his tool, and ultimately scare aware his potential and(!) existing customers? Some of them even high rollers (like Uncle E - the CEO of JRR shop for crying out loud! One of the bigger online distributors in this realm).


Evan - something is seriously wrong. And you should drop your pencils and/or "theories" - drop everything you do and fix things! At this moment, your highest priority should be (and nothing else) the VST version. If we can trust the commentary by the "early access beta testers", the software still has some quirks (nothing drastic), it's is overall usable. If that is the case, then open the darn floodgates and let the masses finally access it without jumping hoops!

After that, you should also keep your promise and release the iOS/Android version.

And once those versions are out... then continue fine tuning with your R&D perfectionism. Not any sooner!




In the meantime - answer us potential customers one simple question, in the honest form possible:
After your recent posts, commentary and conversation... why should we trust you and invest 25USD (intro price!) or even 60USD (pro version, also intro price) for a tool that has been "usable" since 2014, but was NEVER further finished - only "tweaked" (code overhaul)?


Trust in a developer/company is still an important topic these days.

[klinik]

I sadly have to back the people that spoke before. At this point, "Imitone" is way over the head of Evan Balster. He shouldn't be a one man army doing the research & development, programming, the promotion and the customer support. He falls into the very same trap like so many developers before him - something falls short, then the blame game begins and it's down to finger pointing. We had some very bad examples like in the last 10 years on KVR alone.

In fact, the last two posts by Balster (interactopia) is more than a clear sign to stay away from the company at this point (IMO!), which is sad. Half of the posts in here are asking for a refund, for "damage control". And if you have to do that as company, you've messed up - big time. Of course another alternative is just to remain as quiet, play the turtle, grab your money and run. The tone in feedback won't change (it can only get harsher). Or you could just deliver as promised - do damage control, and hope for the best (change of heart in commentary).


Let's take a look at the Kickstarter campaign again.

• it started on 14th March 2014, at this stage "Imitone" was already in a presentable state and more than usable at trade shows.
• the project was fully funded (from initially required 20k USD) on 18th March 2014 - within 4 days! After the campaign was over, the Kickstarter accumulated 90517USD. Cut away about 15% for taxes and fees, and we have a final finance plan of about 76900USD (not counting additional PayPal donations!) for legal fees/patents, maybe paying third parties, and the rest for the development (the CEO)
• the project was presented at various trade shows (among them, A3E and the NAMM - several years in row!), as fully working product, inclusive "multi-timbral" usability
• the project was talked about on BBC, TechHive, Gizmodo, c|net, ars technica, Gigazine and also various magazine outlets - so the project caught a lot(!) of attention
• The stretch goals were as following
  • $20,000 (HIT!) -- Funding Goal Met!
  • $30,000 (HIT!!) -- Automatic scale detection (all versions)
  • $40,000 (HIT!!!) -- Percussion mode (all versions)
  • $60,000 (GO!) -- VST plugin version! (imitone and imitone prime)
  • $75,000 (BLAM!) -- iOS version
  • $90,000 (LAST HOURS!) -- Android version
  From those goals, it seems only the "automatic scale detection" was implemented (yet the page implies tha tit wasn't!), we've yet to see a VST Plugin version (goal clearly exceeded) and as Android user, I've also yet to see an Android version, not to mention iOS app.

Among the risks, the following was stated

...

For that reason I've waited until now, when imitone is nearly complete, to tell the world. At this point it just needs a lot of testing, tweaking and polish -- and I'll admit, that last 10% takes more than its fair share of time! But short of my sudden incapacitation or intervention by a patent troll, there's very little that could hamper that process.

imitone prime will take longer to complete as its interface will be much more complex, but the underlying logic is already functional. Several of its features, including polyphony and noise cancellation, are experimental at this time. For that reason I can't make guarantees about the quality of these features -- but I fully intend to keep working my magic!

The important bits are in bold - or in other words (and as mentioned): the software has always been ready, in fact since the start of the Kickstart campaign (it was shown fully working at trade shows after all), yet according to the developer now... it's still in "Research and Development" (as written in the Kickstarter log, and here on KVR.



To add further insult, on one of the biggest audio tool related boards (aside from GearSlutz), the developer wrote this:

Further remarks on the plugin: It was irresponsible of me to make that promise. I was way too eager to please people here, and it was bad prioritization.

With many arguments why he thinks that his tool is "for the wrong market". And to put even more salt in the wounds, he now "recommends" users to rather get a refund (which is only hurting the company on the long run), and go with the 99USD expensive MIDI Guitar 2 plugin by Jam Origin, or the free MiGiC by Migic Music.


That... is really bad! I mean... it is not my company - but it is apparent that Mr Balster has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of the audio industry as a whole. Gaming industry, maybe. But not the audio tool industry. And I though that "audio" for games these days has the same significance as soundtracks for movies. Looks like I'm mistaken.



I mean, let's look at the paragraphs here:

Reason one: imitone has always been aimed at a more general market than the pro-audio culture represented here. It's not a replacement for other audio-to-MIDI technology because it's aimed at people who might not even know what MIDI is. I've avoided spelling this out, but it reflects in the website, the design, the language I use---everything. And it reflects in my strategy: The technical bar for imitone is much higher for this amateur audience than it is for people here, because when imitone makes a mistake they think well, I'm just not good at this. Priority one is building the world's most user-friendly instrument; priority two is maximizing that instrument's potential. My current work is pushing firmly in both directions.

This is just wrong thinking IMO - and here is why.

These days, if people want to get into making music, they can easily grab a host off of the web. Freeware, or Magware or whatever. But soon these people realize "wait, I want to record my guitar - I need a microphone". So they go out and buy one - or a "care free package" - an ADC and Mic in one bundle. And most of the time these bundles come with bonus deals (read: a host), or the OS already has a host installed (Macintosh especially). In other words, people buy "all-in-one" solutions, things that get you going instantly and you're bombed with freeware and also video tutorials on how to use these tools. Though a lot of them are pretty much self-explanatory these days as well.

And what does Evan Balster want to do?

Sell a standalone tool, with virtual audio and MIDI drivers that need to be properly routed and setup, before people can even use it. Why? Because it's "more user friendly for those that don't understand MIDI". On top of that, it ultimately locks out the audio device with certain hosts. Especially on Windows. You can not(!) expect users to run on Macintosh only where the driver topography is different. And if we talk "Macintosh", we don't talk general market anymore.

People BUY a Mac because of it's "ease of use" (sometimes just as mere prestige object), but most of the time because of design work, video work and audio tools. Why? Because of the big 4 companies (Apple, Steinberg, AVID, Presonus). So we're already talking several hundred USD/EUR just for the rig.

Add to that, the "care free package" that is thrown at you these days... 350USD and you get a 4i/o ADC, a large membrane microphone and a set of decent headphones, plus a host in LE form, a handful of plugins/instruments and free access to host tutorials.

Yet the developer asks for "extra setup" - again "because it's simpler" - this doesn't make any sense at all.

Reason two: Around February I tried out Midi Guitar with my voice, and other than my gripes with its scale mechanism I found it basically comparable with 0.8.1---meaning an imitone-like VST already existed. Based on my experience it's easily the best real-time pitch to MIDI outside of imitone, so you have my encouragement to buy it instead! (It even has a voice preset, if I remember correctly. Props to Ole and friends for eight years of hard work.)

That is the biggest red flag about the company.

The dev just indirectly said "you know what, if you're impatient - f*ck off and go to the competition - here, have your money back!". With this subtone, it is clear to me that the developer simply does not care. He wants to have "perfection", he wants to have the best tool there is, he wants to finish it first before "selling it" to the masses.

The thing is...
a) it's already finished and usable(!)
b) no tool on the market will ever be flawless/perfect or finished - especially not as one-man-army independent developer
c) he got paid 3,5 times over for this

Yet he did not deliver what has been promised so far. And that's been (most notably) a VST version (that the developer still refuses to port - and he said several times that it only "sets him back" 2 weeks max!), and the portable device versions (iOS and Android).



In fact, he even realizes that a stand alone version is more hassle than it should be worth with this very same paragraph:

Now I do realize the standalone routing is a huge pain (or even a show-stopper) when it comes to a studio setup, and I'm not going to wait until the end of the beta to do the portwork---that would be an awful mistake. But I have my priorities, and I'm sticking to them: Get the technology to a point where I feel like I'd use it for serious composition. 0.8.2 gets surprisingly close to that, and the new tech I'm planning promises to be a much bigger improvement.

In fact, in the follow up post, he admits once more that a VST version would make the most sense - but he's not porting it, because "reasons" (insecurity, R&D has more priority, things have to be perfect)

Routing with the standalone is a pain in a studio setup where the user wants to use a single low-latency recording interface for recording and output, and simultaneously enable audio recording in their DAW and pitch tracking in imitone. In this case, VST is the superior format because it averts issues with device exclusivity or stream-fighting.

- Hallelujah!


However, the "argument" for the standalone version is still:

To set up VST, the user needs to create tracks for imitone and the instrument and routings between them. Depending on the DAW, changing imitone will probably require these routings to be manually revised or changed with some kind of shortcut.

As to the user who doesn't know what MIDI is: They can open imitone, followed by their DAW. imitone gets priority on the recording device, and the only DAW set-up is selecting imitone as the MIDI input (which is automatic in many cases). At that point, the user clicks on an instrument and sings; no routing required. The key idea here is that the novice user can get on their feet in minutes without needing to know much about their DAW---and a great many of my users are trying to use imitone to take their first steps.

Balster implies with these two paragraphs, that users are too stupid to setup a host. A VST version is really so much simpler than his "standalone" routing which ultimately blocks out the recording device. And I've messed a couple of times with "standalone audio in -> MIDI out tools" - maybe it's that simple on a Mac, definitely not on Windows.

Anyway - if people buy care-free-packages, they learn their tools within a short period of time. Or these people are already using(!) their tools for a while and look for something like "Voice to MIDI". So this already is(!) an advanced topic, but for all types of users, average, semi-pro, professional studio users and stage performers.

Why does this need to be "dumbed down"? You treat us users like video gamers that look for Shell Enhancement tools for strategy games, yet state "this is not for you - you're already pro's at this, look for something else - this is aimed at beginners... Look! Shiny colors and buttons!".

That is kind of insulting if I'm totally honest with you.



Once more - the project/tool has been usable since 14th March 2014, it was presented at various trade shows (NAMM of all places!), the "beta" is running fairly stable - and the Kickstarter page even mentions all that. It wasn't a wireframe animation, pre-render or still image in the background - it was a working module! And your videos clearly showed that as well.


Why the heck is it so hard to swallow ones ego and just do as it was promised and paid for?!

As mentioned in the recent posts (from me via Twitter and Mail as well!):

• a VST version would simplify things (mic in via the host, only one DAC in use, no extra "shitty mic" needed, settings saved per project, etc)
• a VST version means no extra baggage (like OS specific drivers) and difficult routing is required (aimed at "beginners"; yet not a beginners tool to setup!)
• a VST version beta would mean more and better coverage in terms of tests (which would speed up things drastically!)

We do not ask for outdated formats (RTAS) or some crazy VST3 sidechain capability. Just a simple VST2 plugin version with MIDI out for the Windows platform, an AAX plugin for ProTools and an AU version for Logic. All of them in x64 only. Three plugins. Or go the route like Musiclab and IK Multimedia goes - one global libraries/tools folder and the DLLs only link to that (read: they are basically a low filesize shell).

Worried about tutorials? People might create that for you in text form or video form - that is also free promo. Else, users of ProTools, Logic, Cubase, Nuendo, Studio One, Live, FLStudio, Reaper... you name it... they already know how routing works - these users jumped on to a specific host just because of the usability (or because it came bundled with the OS). And it's really mostly only just two mouse clicks and no extra running task in the background of your DAW.


And of course, there are the iOS and Android users that backed you just because of a possible port. You must address them as well!

Regarding costs and side projects, no; imitone is basically my sole income and I don't put much time into anything else other than SoundSelf---and even that has demanded only a few weeks since February. I live on about $1000-1500 a month; by far most of my expenses have been from exhibition, legal fees and taxes. I completely acknowledge that putting a VST out sooner would boost sales, but I don't need the extra income.

First and foremost - we don't need those pieces of information, as this only cuts into your own flesh. We only care that you got 90k for the whole thing (in reality 76k after taxes, PayPal donations extra), and that you seem to waste the money on excuses for your so called, still needed R&D.

However, now that you mentioned that - this paragraph is adding fuel to the fire, it clearly shows that you messed up. This money was never for trade shows/exhibitions (it should have been mentioned in the finance plan if that was the case!), and we already assumed that you covered all legal fees/patents as it was hinted at (what is that - 5k max?). So let's say, in the end you only have 50k at your disposal (tax/fees subtracted already). Now let's take that through 28 months since the Kickstarter campaign. That is still 1780USD/month - yet you merely delivered maintenance updates and even more excuses!

And you're surprised about the criticism?!




Honestly... I was keeping an eye on Imitone in recent months - even put money aside several times (there are always maintenance upgrade needed in the studio). I was even offering my services as Beta Tester, or write a positive article about that tool (which would have been posted on one of the many audio realm news platforms). You declined(!) because you said "it's not ready yet, I'd rather not" - yet it has been ready since March 2014.

Honestly, what is going on?!

How can someone be so enthusiastic about his tool, and ultimately scare aware his potential and(!) existing customers? Some of them even high rollers (like Uncle E - the CEO of JRR shop for crying out loud! One of the bigger online distributors in this realm).


Evan - something is seriously wrong. And you should drop your pencils and/or "theories" - drop everything you do and fix things! At this moment, your highest priority should be (and nothing else) the VST version. If we can trust the commentary by the "early access beta testers", the software still has some quirks (nothing drastic), it's is overall usable. If that is the case, then open the darn floodgates and let the masses finally access it without jumping hoops!

After that, you should also keep your promise and release the iOS/Android version.

And once those versions are out... then continue fine tuning with your R&D perfectionism. Not any sooner!




In the meantime - answer us potential customers one simple question, in the honest form possible:
After your recent posts, commentary and conversation... why should we trust you and invest 25USD (intro price!) or even 60USD (pro version, also intro price) for a tool that has been "usable" since 2014, but was NEVER further finished - only "tweaked" (code overhaul)?


Trust in a developer/company is still an important topic these days.

+1

[Musical Gym]

MiGiC is not free. You can test the beta with the possibility of being rewarded for testing and providing feedback.

[murnau]

VST version aside: This guy raised his funds on KS two years ago and the backers still struggle with 0.8x?

[GreyLion]

I think the reason that I felt like I was puppy-kicking toward the end of our Twitter exchange, and simply exited it, is that I came to believe that Balster sees himself as a creative artist and researcher.

But he's not. He already took the money, and that makes him the proprietor of a small business.

Who is not shipping any of the promised products.

[pottering]

The dev did offer (multiple times) to refund who is unsatisfied, you guys can't treat the guy like a criminal...

Dev is also providing updates with noticeable improvements every 3 months or so. The detection became noticeably better and he also added new functions since I bought it.

That seems like a steady pace of development for me.

The 0.7 versions were quite fiddly, a VST then would not have satisfied many people (IMO). In fact the last version (0.8.2) is the one that felt really usable for me (since I can't actually sing for sh**, just hum some simple stuff).

Even though the current version is already usable, right now I would rather have a 0.8.3 standalone with even better detection, than a VST version of 0.8.2.

I mean, I do want a VST, but now I kinda get why he said he was still too unsatisfied with the basic usability earlier.

[ThomasHelzle]

Many interesting points raised here.

I personally have no interest in raising the pressure on Ewan, since that does not improve the performance of human brains at all.
And 25$ is not a sum I'm willing to go for pitchforks and torches over either

What I personally think though is, that after all this time I feel that a re-evaluation may be in order:
- The kickstarter was NOT about the voice-to-midi-tool to end all voice-to-midi-tools. That was NOT was the backers bought into or expected. It was about something that at the time already was quite impressive when I think back to the orchestral demo. And about something that all the backers can use, not only some of them.
So while I would totally encourage a developer who strives for perfection in the bigger view and longer run and who wants to help newbies, I at the same time think it would be a very good idea to not put a software tool in that nirvana/kingdom-come place that may or may not come EVER.
Heck, even nature first delivered protozoa and took some millions of years to arrive at the current open beta of humanity

Life is all about certain amounts of compromise and the here and now in the end.

When after two years it's clear that the voice-to-midi topic is much more complicated than expected, why not take a step back and fulfil the Kickstarter goals right here and now? Create that VST, that iOS and Android and Pro versions with the tech that is there now.
Then, with that as a base, life can go on, the algorithm can be improved further over time and the devs head will be much clearer and more open after a break.

...And the dev wouldn't be an Ewan Balster with TWO unsuccessful Kickstarter campaigns on his back...

Cheers,

Tom

[omac]

In the interests of accuracy Evan Balster started three kickstarter projects that didn't finish

Infinite Blank
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ev ... sts/773775
started in 2010. He posted an "I'm not dead" message in 2011, an apology message in 2014 which basically said he couldn't do it due to not being able to make a living on it and mentioned imitone.

Soundself
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... /soundself
started in 2013

Imitone
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ev ... -to-melody
started in 2014

[whyterabbyt]

In the interests of accuracy Evan Balster started three kickstarter projects that didn't finish
...

Soundself
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/so ... /soundself
started in 2013
...

In the interests of even more accuracy Evan Blaster didnt start the Soundself kickstarter, although he is a programmer on that project.

[Harry_HH]

Its great to have avant garde, bold innovators.
Evenly, its most valuable to have analytical, critical voices such as Compyfox and omac.
One can just wish that there is enough transparency and open dialogue for getting best results.

[Compyfox]

MiGiC is not free. You can test the beta with the possibility of being rewarded for testing and providing feedback.

Must have over-read that section at BPB - it was late in the morning for me.
But thanks for the correction.

VST version aside: This guy raised his funds on KS two years ago and the backers still struggle with 0.8x?

Oh I wouldn't completely disregard that. I mean, look at one of the more recent prime examples where "Betas" turned out to be highly working regular full versions, and once they hit "v1" they turned commercial. In the VSTi realm that's definitely material from U-HE, and I still remember the outcry for Audjoo's HELIX (which was already great in Beta - and then suddenly people had to shell out 150USD), then the outstanding S.Kullmann SQ8L - which also was in "beta" and is fully usable to this day (though sadly, it has been discontinued).

In case of Imitone... he started with Beta 0.5.x - and it was already in a usable state (which lies in the eyes of the beholder - but if it can be shown as "running flawless" and be used at trade shows, then it is usable IMO!). Now we're currently on v0.8.2 - with two code revisions in between IIRC and the most different feedback on usability.

The dev did offer (multiple times) to refund who is unsatisfied, you guys can't treat the guy like a criminal...

We're not treating him like a "criminal" (spoken in a very blunt way). We only want to see the promises that have been made to us. The developer said right from the start "the project is done and usable, now it's only down to testing (the final 10%)". And since then, it has been code overhauls and excuses "why the development is so slow".

It's one thing if for example Slate Digital announces a plugin, and then doesn't deliver for the next two years. But at least he doesn't ask for money in advance and never delivers. In fact, I know of another company that asked for a monthly subscription fee and promised 2-5 plugins a year bar minimum - yet the company is standing still since February 2014 - and that is AXIS Plugins.


Additional to that - asking for a refund and getting it after over 2 years, while saying in the same breath "just look at the competition then", is not a great poster child for a company. At least there are no additional insults like "good riddance" or something (I've been there).

Dev is also providing updates with noticeable improvements every 3 months or so. The detection became noticeably better and he also added new functions since I bought it.

That seems like a steady pace of development for me.

A steady pace of development, until sh*t really hits the fan (I'm currently in such a beta myself) would be if the goal is to deliver within 3 months to 6 months, maybe 1 year max (as this was initially planned!). Especially if the plugin has already been in a "usable state" - as mentioned over and over.

Yes, "life" can always fork you over - apologies can be accepted. But what drives me up the walls is that the developer admits that he messed up, apologized more than once, he even asked for feedback on how to improve things, he wants to(!) improve things. Yet he then completely ignores what was said again and goes back to his old habits/planned course.

No matter if I'm a backer, a bystander or a current user - this gives me all the wrong signs!

The 0.7 versions were quite fiddly, a VST then would not have satisfied many people (IMO). In fact the last version (0.8.2) is the one that felt really usable for me (since I can't actually sing for sh**, just hum some simple stuff).

Even though the current version is already usable, right now I would rather have a 0.8.3 standalone with even better detection, than a VST version of 0.8.2.

I mean, I do want a VST, but now I kinda get why he said he was still too unsatisfied with the basic usability earlier.

Well, this is an Apples and Oranges situation. Like mentioned over and over at this point, the tool was usable right from the start. "How usable" lies within the eyes of the beholder (as you just confirmed, and kind of put as defense for the developer).

But it is a difference between a working concept shown on videos and at trade shows, and then delaying it for over 2 years with the most various reasons there are - like it happened in this case. Or... (to give another example from the gaming realm, which Balster should be more than aware of) having a pre-rendered FMV sequence of a game/tool, no demo at all, a huge hype and the end product is a piece of crap. Looking at the gaming industry in most recent years: Aliens Colonial Marines or EVOLVE. Or why do you think that "not actual ingame engine", "prerendered video" or "product in beta state, can change until final release" is not MANDATORY for such presentations)?

We have to put this into perspective!


Again, you could have delivered what you've promised. Like: VST version, apps for portable devices. Yet still clearly tag them as "Beta" or "Early Access". This sh*t is happening daily in the gaming industry. This type of stuff is happening daily in the audio industry (plugins, instruments, hosts!). People are then aware of that up front (they know the risks - and in some cases, it's a sorry excuse for money grabs - looking at the bigger gaming companies!), yet can still use the tools and hope that the developer updates it every 2-4 weeks. Not every 3 months, and after over 2 years it's a completely different product as initially advertised (been there as well!). This way, after 60-75 days - you could still say "works for me, I'll keep it and wait for the final version" or "sorry - developer messed up, I want my money back". Doing that after 2 years still... shows me that something is terribly wrong.


Why is it so difficult for Evan Balster to realize that?
Why is a 2 week port the anchor point for "not doing it", and continue to say "the R&D needs to be be better, the code optimized, it's made for 'beginners', not (semi) professionals (even though I showed it at at the North American Music and Merchant trade show - or NAMM in short)"? (in fact, the "research" part has been done up until the Kickstarter project in 2014 - else this thing wouldn't exist in the first place!)
Why is an initially working tool not "good enough" for that task?

To me as outside person that did not back this project, it's even more incomprehensible.


It is not about "getting more income" - it is about fulfilling your promise, doing right by your backers and show the interested parties "hey - I am the developer, it's a close-to-heart project, I care! You're welcome! This will be a great product!". Something I was actually looking forward to! Instead he's indirectly flipping us the bird and pushing us away on purpose. Even says "writing on a professional board was a mistake" - but in the end, this tool is for the audio creating people! From beginners to professionals. And he cut off his biggest market (the semi-pro's and pro's), because he thinks "it is not for you" - but the absolute beginners usually know jack about both hosts, routing and tools. So it's not really made for them either!


I'm not raising pressure on this dev - I'm just stating my thoughts. And to me, as somebody that's been in this industry for over 20 years (so I've seen/experienced things), this isn't logical!

In the interests of accuracy Evan Balster started three kickstarter projects that didn't finish

We have to be a bit more detailed than that.

By Kickstarter standards, all of these projects were fully funded, even exceeded their pledge goals. So considering that only, the campaigns were a success. What happened after that, lies on a whole different ballpark.


Infinite Blank initially asked for 1000USD, it gathered 2379USD (sans 15% fees, so 2022,15USD). It was planned for a server and further "drive for development". As I take it, the project didn't even kick off further than the funding and people couldn't play like advertised. It was planned to be a quick cash in for Balster (he even stated "he's broke") - and IMO the absolute wrong move in times of "app games" and "free to play, but unlock more goodies with payments". I think this is the biggest problem with single developers - they can't handle everything and miss the forest for the trees.

To add further insult, Balster wrote as final posts for the backers to "get access to the beta of Imitone", to make up for the not delivered game. If the 106 backers for this game are completely different backers than 106 people out of the 2433 backers for Imitone... then he has about 100 extra testers. And if only 20% of all of them give feedback... that is over 480 testers, way more than any audio company with a set beta team of 10-30 people could ever wish for. Yet the project isn't finished yet, it's still being recoded and changed (something which shouldn't happen, if you write "it's done" at the beginning of the campaign).

So why is this wasted in time, potential and patience of the backers?!



SoundSelf has been out since March 2013, and it asked for roughly 29k USD to cover all expenses. They made 36766USD from which 35% goes away for rewards and fees (sometimes even double the fees - as mentioned in their charts). So from 36766 USD, they kept 23897,90USD - about 5,8k USD more than their initial fees for the development (18k USD), which was then probably split into 3 (so 8k USD each). However, they at least delivered both the prototype and "betas" (on request). Else the writing of the text with the 90% development, 10% testing is exactly the same.



And imitone... well, I can only repeat myself. Campaign was more than a success (>3,5x the amount asked for!), module was usable right off the bat, developer insisted "only testing is needed at this point". You can't just write "it's done at this point" and then deliver a half-arsed tool, or say "it's not for professionals", if those were probably the most backers and high-rollers! In fact, the minimum "backing slot" was 20USD - and not 1USD or 5USD like so many other Kickstarter Projects. I mean, did the 8 backers for the SoundSelf Charm (250USD) even get their price yet?!

Anyway - this would be the same as saying "yo, our strategy game is finished" but in the end you only have 2 units and 10 minutes of gameplay - then your PC crashes like nobody's business and formats your OS drive. "but hey, thanks for your 200USD donation, you'll be mentioned in the credits, in font size 6!". This is not how you do an early access of a 90% finished program IMO.

Its great to have avant garde, bold innovators.
Evenly, its most valuable to have analytical, critical voices such as Compyfox and omac.
One can just wish that there is enough transparency and open dialogue for getting best results.

At this point, both backers and interested parties gave a lot of "food for thought" so to speak to Evan Balster. He picked up on it, only to dismiss it again.

Open dialogue good and fine, but at this stage it feels like that the developer just doesn't care anymore. He rather lives on the success of his campaigns and then says "sorry - can't deliver - moving on - it's my pet peeve, I'll finish eventually, just stay tuned - and if it takes too long, look somewhere else".


Now imagine one of the small independent developers here on KVR and GS saying the same thing, promise the blue from the sky, live off of the free marketing (word of mouth, anticipation by users, etc), then taking the money and run. What backlash would that be? Oh wait, we had that several times, didn't we? Most notably TeamDNR and their Workbench thing.




I stated my points - I asked a question to the developer (see my last post). It's now in the hands of Evan Balster.

But I have a feeling, that looking at alternatives is not too wayward after all. Pity, I really wanted to support this tool...

[omac]

@ whyterabbyt - I'm sorry. He, Robin and Topher have that kickstarter. I think it is necessary to include it though as the content of the posts require it.

@Compfox - I'm actually referring to receiving funding and delivering the products. I think it's a package deal since the funds are for the development and distribution of the products.

[Compyfox]

Again, omac - the campaigns were a complete success - all three of them. The delivering of the product/the project and distribution is what we're criticizing. Rightfully so even.

[musikmachine]

So guys is midi guitar 2 viable for use with voice? I assume i can use the iphone app over a lighting cable and track the midi in Live but does it work well with hte built in mic or is imitone the better option?

All this development stuff aside i'm not balking at $25 if if it has better tracking but with midi guitar i could just record into Gadget and then export the midi but the free with the free version i'm getting stuck notes and tracking isn't very accurate or responsive, i assume cause i'm not using a guitar!