Axe-FX vs amp sims

[egbert]

Thermionik is very impressive. The big thing seems to be that the developer has some method of analysing an amp and turning it into a model that enables him to create accurate and flexible amp models on an industrial scale - dozens of fully featured, accurate models. I think this puts him ahead of the game by a considerable margin.

[zerocrossing]

Thermionik is very impressive. The big thing seems to be that the developer has some method of analysing an amp and turning it into a model that enables him to create accurate and flexible amp models on an industrial scale - dozens of fully featured, accurate models. I think this puts him ahead of the game by a considerable margin.

My question about amp sims like Thermionik (haven't tried it yet) is that I think a big part of "realistic" sounding tube amp simulations is that in a tube output stage the load (speaker) varies it's impedance based on the output. Overall it creates an interactive filter (thus "warmth") that a transistor stage output does not have. So, having to use two different plug ins will never simulate that.

That's the strength, IMO, of the Kemper. When you profile it you are getting a profile of the entire system including the mic. Sure, it's a static profile of the amp at a fixed set of settings, but the signal the KPA puts into the amp is all over the place and I imagine it'd designed to look at how an amp behaves during a wide range of varying input. A lot of people even include outboard gear in the profile, like fuzz boxes and overdrive pedals, to capture that as well. (Time based effects mess it up)

[EvilDragon]

Actually Thermionik models the power amp behaviour as well, along with the Dynamics knob in Recabinet 5 works quite well. Sure, it's not doing the same thing Kemper does, it's actually more flexible. Shane is not out of ideas either, who knows what the future entails there (well for starters, a noise gate and some ridiculously accurate stompbox emulations)...

[zerocrossing]

@incubus
One approach for keeping your options open is to record the processed sound from hardware sim (eg via SPDIF or stereo balanced analog) and record DI in parallel. That way you have your instant gratification no futz take down but you have infinite options to re-amp via amp sims or real amps later if you want to.

Some hardware amp sims have direct parallel outs for this and other purposes and, in their absence, you can get a splitter (eg http://lehle.com/EN/Splitter) or a DI with two outputs.

Some even allow you to put the direct signal on one SPDIF channel and the processed amp signal (mono) in the other so you get both automatically.

Correct, but I'm trying NOT to futz. I've spent more time trying to get that "holy grail" tone than actually playing

The thing about the holy grail is that it's really hard to find and if you do find it, you get melted down if you look at it.

I think for me the "holy grail" of guitar tone would be a room full of boutique amps and a Two Tone Torpedo Studio with a healthy sized pedal board full of cool fuzz boxes and what not.

But that may as well be locked away in a secret government warehouse somewhere. I don't have the space or money to really invest in that type of a system. To me, the Kemper comes very close and it's compact and somewhat affordable. It also seems to be fairly futz suppressing. You can spend a lot of time looking for profiles on the site, or even buy some aftermarket profiles (I have a few) but there's really no need. The factory ones cover a lot of ground and are of very high quality. It also takes pedals really well, and I've added a Blackstar HT-5 Dual and EH Cockfight to it to cover some extra ground. I may also pick up a chorus pedal of some type (Möbius?) because, though the on board effects are very good, they are not very tweakable.

[zerocrossing]

Actually Thermionik models the power amp behaviour as well, along with the Dynamics knob in Recabinet 5 works quite well. Sure, it's not doing the same thing Kemper does, it's actually more flexible. Shane is not out of ideas either, who knows what the future entails there (well for starters, a noise gate and some ridiculously accurate stompbox emulations)...

How could it model the interaction between the cabinet unless it's just doing a blanket "this is what a 12" Celestion behaves like" approximation? Which, may be enough. I'll check it out, but usually I like a single device/plug in to avoid excessive futzing. How is it in comparison to Amplitube 4? I did a side by side with the Kemper when it was released and it was a huge difference at times. I actually got pretty turned off to some of the models, like the Engle.

[incubus]

I can't my mind too quickly

What I thought was "god like" tone 30 years ago doesn't even turn me on anymore. I appreciate EVERY SINGLE person who brings that process to our lives though. As frustrated as I've been at times, it's still pretty cool.

[egbert]

While I screw around a lot and record parts in DAWs with hardware and software sims, I use just one patch on my little Yamaha THR10 (a cleanish warm setting on the crunch amp with some reverb) for most of my real practice. Plugin in, power up and go. Sounds quite good at really low volume - eg along with late night TV with others sleeping close by. I definitely prefer not needing to use headphones for this sort of thing.

Just having this option has helped me get a lot more useful practice done and it is definitely better for hearing what I'm doing than playing unplugged electrics. The limitations of the THR10 have worked in my favour in this regard I think.

[Uncle E]

The THR10 is surprisingly great sounding. It doesn't have that fizzy sound that most digital products have.

[electro]

This thread is getting me interested in Thermionik but I didn't see a Twin or SVT on the list.

[egbert]

Blackverb, Chimp and Bassmensch are the Fender models. Blackverb should cover what you're looking for.

[EvilDragon]

This thread is getting me interested in Thermionik but I didn't see a Twin or SVT on the list.

They might come at a later date, but Blackverb will definitely get you in the ballpark of Twin.

IMHO Thermionik beats A4 in modelling accuracy definitely, plus offers some rare amps that weren't modelled in the software world yet (some aren't available in hardware modellers either).

[bmanic]

Actually Thermionik models the power amp behaviour as well, along with the Dynamics knob in Recabinet 5 works quite well. Sure, it's not doing the same thing Kemper does, it's actually more flexible. Shane is not out of ideas either, who knows what the future entails there (well for starters, a noise gate and some ridiculously accurate stompbox emulations)...

How could it model the interaction between the cabinet unless it's just doing a blanket "this is what a 12" Celestion behaves like" approximation? Which, may be enough. I'll check it out, but usually I like a single device/plug in to avoid excessive futzing. How is it in comparison to Amplitube 4? I did a side by side with the Kemper when it was released and it was a huge difference at times. I actually got pretty turned off to some of the models, like the Engle.

Personally I think Amplitube sounds really really bad. I've never gotten an useful sound out of it.. ever. There's just something completely "wrong" with it's sound, no matter how much you tweak.

I too was skeptical about Thermionik but the simple "fact" is, it's ridiculously good sounding. It's one of those few amp models that behave and sound "just right" in my opinion. It's also extremely flexible in the way you can drive the input or not (of ALL the models). I've compared the Kazrog Chimp model side by side to the real deal (which was a slightly modified one though) and the basic playing style and sound coming out of the thing is very close. Sound wise I didn't get it exactly nailed but this is pretty much impossible anyhow considering I don't know how the impulse was recorded so nailing the same exact mic position is impossible.

However, I could immediately hear and feel the "tone" from the actual components.. it's very familiar.

At this very moment, Thermionik is my absolute favorite. I haven't had all that much time with the kemper yet but what was available in the local guitar shop where I played with one for a few hours, I would say Thermionik is the better sounding option. The Kemper has a sort of compression going on everything.. I can't quite put my finger on it but it's sort of "controlled wannabe dynamic". Hard to explain.. it's as if it wanted to be supremely dynamic but can't, like it's hindered at some processing stage.

Anyhow, I'm still on track getting that Kemper due to it's flexibility but I can not hide the fact that I was slightly disappointed with the sound of the thing right out of the box.

[bmanic]

IMHO Thermionik beats A4 in modelling accuracy definitely...

It completely and utterly ANNIHILATES amplitube (any version).

.. but then again, in my opinion Amplitube is one of the weaker guitar modeling solutions currently on the market.

The only slight competition Thermionik has is from S-Gear but those two actually complement one another more than they overlap or compete.

[bmanic]

While I screw around a lot and record parts in DAWs with hardware and software sims, I use just one patch on my little Yamaha THR10 (a cleanish warm setting on the crunch amp with some reverb) for most of my real practice. Plugin in, power up and go. Sounds quite good at really low volume - eg along with late night TV with others sleeping close by. I definitely prefer not needing to use headphones for this sort of thing.

Just having this option has helped me get a lot more useful practice done and it is definitely better for hearing what I'm doing than playing unplugged electrics. The limitations of the THR10 have worked in my favour in this regard I think.

The same exact reason I got one.. though I'm one of those nutters who likes the firmware v1 sound much more than v2.

The THR10 is also a surprisingly decent sound card that has an ASIO driver which manages low latencies easily (at least on my windows computers.. on my Mac it was a bit troublesome once I got past 50% CPU usage).

The THR10 is surprisingly great sounding. It doesn't have that fizzy sound that most digital products have.

Agreed. Yamaha has always been quite good at this digital amp modeling thing. Even the old DG-Stomp or DG series stuff sounded pretty good in the highs of the "tone". They had some other issues but at least the highs were not screachy/nasty in a way that some previous efforts have been (I'm looking at you Native Instruments!!).

[EvilDragon]

Dunno, I must say Kemper blew my mind when I played it in the shop... There are some ridiculously great profiles available for it, and the thing does get regular updates... Effects are extremely sweet, too.

IMHO the best Kemper demo is this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHpWWcbNHrk


The guy has magic going through his fingers, I swear.