Hardware VA's vs latest and greatest software VA's

VST, AU, AAX, CLAP, etc. Plugin Virtual Instruments Discussion
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The Virus sounds excelent. Diva, Serum, Massive and some other soft synths sound even better to me.

But they are all Instruments, choose what inspires you, it is at the end pure aesthetic choice.
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rod_zero wrote:Choose what inspires you, it is at the end pure aesthetic choice.
+1

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I have been struggling to settle on my studio makeup for some time in this regard. I have finally (fingers crossed) settled on keeping VA in the box with the exception of the Virus TI2 which will remain along with samples and digital drum machines also kept ITB. I am going to sell off most of my hardware which represents a fair few modern VA keyboards, grooveboxes, drum machines etc as software really does have most of it beat. (Nova II, Venom, Gaia, K5000s, SH32, beat thang, ER1 II, MPC 5000 and more). On the other hand, I will limit my hardware to what I see its strongest point, I will keep a couple of analogue drum machines and continue to build up my modular synth which will in turn deprive my children of food.

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Last edited by goldenanalog on Tue May 03, 2016 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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EvilDragon wrote:
SLiC wrote:You would probably need 3K of computer to get 128 note polly from Diva at 96K (if its even possible)!
You can't, Diva has a max polyphony of 16 voices. Perfectly enough I'd say, and you're also not gaining anything by running Diva at 96k because it oversamples internally to 384k anyways!
Also, Diva polyphony is different then in Virus. I quite offten get to a part where i am able only to use 1 part and play only 1 key in virus, because of hyper saw, unison, fx and modulation wich on in Diva never happens unless you set limits in the options. Im using Snow model wich has 50 Polyphony, but by numbers its still higher then Diva...

So numbers 128 or 50 and other "higher" numbers in polyphony doesnt say anything at all these days.

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chk071 wrote:
V0RT3X wrote: Here is a demo of the Virus Ti2 Factory Presets.
https://soundcloud.com/spacesheep1/acce ... esets-demo

Actually IMO that for general purpose VA duties Dune2 sounds much better than the VirusTI2.
https://soundcloud.com/aiyn-zahev/dune-2-demo-tracks
I don't think it's very fair to compare a unprocessed, recorded very silently demo of the raw factory presets (which obviously aren't even exactly good either), to a processed, produced to the max sound demo which should advertise a sound set though. Seriously, this is, like, the worst i ever heard from the Virus. There are tons of sound demos on Youtube and elsewhere which sound 100 times better. The synth has been used on countless records in electronic musc genres, it is and has been the go-to hardware synth for many musicians out there. Frankly, i feel like Dune 2 is overhyped a lot here. It's a decent synth, yes, but, frankly, there are at least 5 soft synths i can think of which have a more pleasant character to my ears. Yes, that surely is subjective, and if Dune 2 sounds better to your ears, then fair enough. But even in the genres i like, i haven't read or heard that it's massively popular either. I feel like some plugins are massively hyped over here, just like the Valhalla stuff, and when i try it, it's not for me, or i think "Meh... wth was that hype about?", and turn to the stuff which is rather popular "out there", if you know what i mean.
I agree here, its not a fair comparison.

Dune 2 does sound great, and you can get almost same sounding patches, "virusy" kind of and with similar character and even fatter by the spectrum. But In my expierience i can tell Virus has advantage by cutting thro very well in the mix, "sitting" in the right position. With Dune 2 you have to do some processing to push it, to stand out in the track.

P.S. i dont think Dune 2 is overhyped. If anything would be then its being hyped not enough :D

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I think one of the problems with hardware comparisons is that people dont always have the hardware for an A/B comparison - they are trying to compare recorded (often dithered compressed effected) hardware with VSTs which is like comparing a sampler/rompler version of the hardware with the VST modelled VA.

Also Virus analog outs to my mixer and sounds better than the virus through USB total itigration.

Slightly OT butI started with all virtual, and was all virtual for about a decade, but My current setup now includes electron analog 4. RYTM, prophet 8 and Virus TI rack and 240hp of modular.....all in to an X32 desk (that can record live or electron sequenced to USB in the desk).
I also have lots of VST...all the UHE stuff, Serum, Falcon etc, all great....but the hardware setup sounds so much better and currently I find it more fun and more creative, its whatever works ;-)
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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In the past concrning hardware VAs i had owned e.g. Virus KC, Virus TI desktop (Mk I), Nord Lead 2X, Waldorf Q and some more. Att the moment i own Waldorf Blofeld desktop (with SL/sample expansion), Novation UltraNova and also a Waldorf Streichfett that is a DSP based String machine synth so more or less VA too.

Also got two "hybrid" synths with digital Oscs and analog filters here: Korg DW-8000 and Ensoniq ESQ-1. From those while i prefer the sound of teh DW-8000 (and i do not really see a software replacement there..) the ESQ-1 has a quite complex engine not too far from modern VA synths (including 3 Oscs with 32 waveforms, Osc Sync, Ringmod, 4 envelopes and 3 LFOs).

I can't really say that the softsynths i own or had used in the past are full replacments while SQ8L is close for the Ensoniq ESQ-1 (except at higher filter Resonance...) and Largo is very close to the Blofeld (while the Blofeld includes additional features like PPG filter mode, sample playback and ciustom wavetables support).
Somehow Largo is also close to the Q hardware synth but those do not sot seem to be similar (while Largo includes the Alt1 and Alt2 wavetables of the Q). Anyway Largo still seems to be the closest to the Blofeld, the Q and also Micro Q.

I could still not see a plugin that fully replaces a Virus TI while some plugins including the upcoming Icarus seem to emulate certain features (e.g. Hypersaw, wavetables and a few more) quite nicely. Anyway this still does not mean that those are full replacements (a proper emulation then must also include the same wavetables besides a lot of other stuff...).

The Nord Lead seems to have a quite unique sound too but while some plugin want to be close (e.g. Discovery Pro) i do not really think those do really nail it. In that respect teh sound of teh Nord Lead 2X taht i owned also seems to be a bit different to the newer Nord synths.

I do not own many String Machines emulations (got e.g. Solina V from Arturua V-Colletcion 4 and Xils Lab V+) but those i have tested do not really seem to be replacements for the Waldorf streichfett. Streichfett also has some features that seem tobe unique like e.g. continuous morphing/blending of the registrations (= different sounds) while most (or all?) vintage hardware string machines had fixed presets for those. Streichfett also alows to modulate this morphing with a LFO. With te 2 sections you could also do some interesting layers and/or splits.

Concerning the Novation UltraNova currently i hardly see any repacement as software, both sound and feature wise. In terms of "fat" and/or "Ballsy" sounds IMO in somke cases it could rival even real analog synths. It has a very complex synth engine with 3 Oscs, basic waveforms + wavetables + single digital waveforms, "Density" feature in all 3 oscs comparable to a "Hypersaw" but for all waveforms, Unison, VSync (= Sync but a dbit different than the usualy one, available at all 3 Oscs), a dual multimode filter, 6 envelopes, 3 LFOs, an Arpeggiator, a nice FX section (5 FX slots with adjustable routig) and some more.
The "hardness" parameter in the Oscs could further adjust the harmonic content of the waveform, comnparable to an additional filter.
Not to forget that the UltraNova could be quite nice controller (when used with Automap), has a built-in audio inteface, could be USB powered (while an external power supply is included), has a nice Fatar keybed with velocity and aftertouch and is also quite simply to edit from the hardware (while it also includes a VST editor and a librarian).
At the moment the closest plugin is maybe the upcoming Tone2 Icarus (got the Beta here) but even that is no proper replacement if you want that sound and the same features. Electra 2.1 could be somehow close too while ther the Hypersaw is limited to only a single waveform, opposing to how it works in Icarus where this works for all waveforms (like the Density feature in UltraNova).
Last edited by Ingonator on Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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yul wrote:So it seems that some HW VAs do stand out in terms of quality namely the Virus and Nord.
Quality is debatable but the Virus TI is pretty much the perfect balance of power, immediacy, flexibility, and control. You can make professional sounding music with nothing but that and you probably wouldn't have to worry about running out of voices or polyphony, and you wouldn't need to hassle with assigning controllers and automation.

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ITB has its clear advantages: faster workflow, cheaper setup, less hassle regarding connectivity (routing) and compatibility. There's no such thing as freeware hardware; and hardware has its limitations - some features/combinatiosn simply can't be replicated outside the box.

On the other hand software is CPU & OS dependant and has a limited life span.

I personally prefer a mixed environment (I don't really get the folks that insist to stay on one side exclusively), but I must admit that usually I find it simpler and easier to just load a bunch of synths into a DAW and build a song in a matter of hours ;) Fun-wise though... yeah, hardware is still unbeatable: turning knobs, raising sliders, playing on a solid keyboard, all that feels like proper actual playing, instead of "mousing". But it does require a minimal level of playing skills (which I utterly suck at, heh).

The way I see it: ITB allows ppl like me with no previous keyboard playing skills to make music using software instruments and piano rolls, while a 100% hardware setup requires a bit of knowledge/skills both in playing a keyboard, organising a setup chain, and synthesis - which can be intimidating for the average beginner bedroom artist. And like I said, going ITB allows you to make music with zero additional costs, which is imossible with a hardware setup.
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I believe it depends on the genre or/and the style of the music you are doing.

For me, mostly pop synth/industrial, I don't see VA synths as a requirement. I have one hardware VA (Blofeld) which I don't need, but I like. It is the keyboard version, if it was the desktop version, I might have sold it. I like the keys/wheels/knobs of it. I also like the whole thing (like the good feeling you feel inside a car that is inviting to to drive). Of course I like the sound of it, but there are synths that can replace it easily (other than Largo, it can be Massive, Dune 2 and Codex and other non-wavetable synths like Razor, Bazille ...etc).

Blofeld is my main Midi controller as well. I don't feel I miss something else in my setup. One piece of hardware is enough for me. The soft synths can replace everything for me. Before some time, I wanted so much to buy an analog synth, but after a while, I found Monark can do it for me nicely! So, I don't need even an analog synth for my kind of music ;)

If I have to choose sonically between a Virus Ti (or any VA) and my soft synths (form NI, Arturia, u-he, ..etc). I would choose my soft synths.

What if there is no Blofeld. I would buy Ultranova and use it instead. Virus? Nord Lead? No. They are pricey and won't do much more than the Blofeld (or the Ultranova) for me.

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Wow- this is turning in to a reasonable and well debated hardware Vs Software debate on KVR- first ever :wink:

I have one other point, and again it is a generalisation, but when I buy hardware I seem to spend more time learning to use it properly it than I do with software.

There is no one reason for this- it often costs more so you are literally more invested (although if I add up what I have spent on VST's and upgrades....). Also, it is often more imitate (knobs, buttons, just turn it on and play) but I also think we are just so spoilt with VSTi as the developers can so easily add new features and updates and it is way to easy to get lured in to sales/pre-launch prices/update for stuff you really don't need and will probably never use! Some people may think this is an advantage of software and constantly crave new features and updates, but for me I have realised this is just a distraction and being able to find your way around what you have quickly is what gets ideas turned in to songs.

I added up how much I had spent on software 'Virtual' analogue software over the years and realised I could have just bought an real analogue Polly (so got a second hand Prophet 8 rack fro 600 quid)! If you crave the analogue sound, stop buying VA's, save up and buy a real analogue; they really do sound different (and there has never been a better time, more choice or more value) but there is much more to synthesis than analogue, and I will always have a place for synths like Serum, Falcon, Omnisphere etc.
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S49MK2, Studio One, BWS, Live 12. PUSH 3 SA, Osmose, Summit, Pro 3, Prophet8, Syntakt, Digitone, Drumlogue, OP1-F, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Nord Drum3P, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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SLiC wrote: I have one other point, and again it is a generalisation, but when I buy hardware I seem to spend more time learning to use it properly it than I do with software.

There is no one reason for this- it often costs more so you are literally more invested (although if I add up what I have spent on VST's and upgrades....). Also, it is often more imitate (knobs, buttons, just turn it on and play) but I also think we are just so spoilt with VSTi as the developers can so easily add new features and updates and it is way to easy to get lured in to sales/pre-launch prices/update for stuff you really don't need and will probably never use! Some people may think this is an advantage of software and constantly crave new features and updates, but for me I have realised this is just a distraction and being able to find your way around what you have quickly is what gets ideas turned in to songs.
That's actually a good point, and i can totally understand that. I wrote it in another thread, the "hands on" thingie lets you build up a different relationship to the synth, as if you'd just fiddle with a GUI on your computer screen. That's what humans are about, touching things, getting to know a physical thing inside out (actually animals are the same... with just the intelligence limiting the experience ;)), it's just something else when you fiddle with something physically than virtually. The thing is though, and that's the deciding factor for me, that the advantages of software outshine the advantages of the hands on experience of hardware IMO. Software lets you use unlimited instances of the same thing, just limited by the processing power of your computer. It's is totally integrated with the host, and the functions which are possible with the plugin format. It doesn't "age", there's nothing to replace, you don't have to bounce, which is a huge plus for me in terms of workflow, you can do keyboard-split stuff using different plugins at the same time, and so on.

That said, i wouldn't fully exclude that i'd end up something hardware at some point though. But then, it should be fully controllable from the hardware interface, with lots of knobs, and no menu diving, because that would really kill it for me, on some small screen, when i'm used to control full GUI's with all laid on one screen on the computer. Otherwise the "hands on" appeal, which for me is one of the few major advantages, just wouldn't be there anymore.

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True story. Hand to God.

I was trying to get together with another musician to do something together with him. This was back when I was 100% hardware synths and the top stuff for the times.

I gave him a demo tape and his words were "Your synth sounds are weak."

The synth on the demo was the same exact one that he uses, a Korg Triton. At the time, it was one of the top synths.

Anybody, I don't care who they are, can make a synth sound bad whether it be hardware or software. Conversely, anybody can make a synth sound good if he knows what he's doing.

I had to laugh when he told me my synth sounds were weak especially since these were all Triton stock presets. LOL.

BTW, he liked my songs. He just didn't like my synth sounds. Ultimately, we didn't end up doing anything together but I always love thinking about this story when I get into a hardware/software debate.

See, later on, when I went totally ITB, he said my sounds were better. LMAO.

Take what you want from all this. Personally, I'd never go back to hardware with a gun to my head.

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The best thing about software is that it allows people with no skill or patience to get the job done without any of the fun bits of creativity getting in the way.

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