Do All of Today's MIDI Controllers Suck For Controlling VA's?

[chk071]

I guess that's why this guy builds all those funky soft synth controllers: http://www.synth-project.de/index.html Damn expensive hobby though, and of course you have to like what you're doing.

[thecontrolcentre]

You want lots of knobs, midi and usb ...?



BCR2000 goes for around £100 ...

[bungle]

Didn't Behringer recently announce they are stopping building the BCR (sad day)

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I guess that's why this guy builds all those funky soft synth controllers: http://www.synth-project.de/index.html Damn expensive hobby though, and of course you have to like what you're doing.

If I had the know how and skill, that is exactly what I'd do, cost be damned!

[DJ Warmonger]

Actually I don't think I'd need 16 knobs and 8 faders, since I can grab only two at once If you really need hands-on control, get fully analog synth.
For virtual synths I spend most of time adjusting modulation matrix and other digital stuff by hand, so knobs are of little use here.

[pdxindy]

Midi controllers suck for controlling softsynths in a sound design sense... unless it is a very simple synth or you are just tweaking a few performance controls...

I've tried lots of stuff and the mouse and computer screen is still vastly superior for sound design...

I agree, but I think the problem can be dramatically improved upon. I view the biggest problems with creating patches on the current crop of keyboard controllers as...

1. Most don't have enough controls for sound design (patch creation) in the first place
2. No MIDI controller is laid out like a synthesizer (i.e. not inspiring to use)
3. Programming most MIDI controllers is about compromises
4. Most MIDI controllers also try to be DAW controllers (pads for Abelton, transport controls, knobs above faders for pan)
5. Most are meant for live controlling a few parameters on a per-synth or per-patch basis versus being about patch editing/creation

I think all of that could be fixed with a 40+ parameter keyboard controller laid out like a synth. It'd never work 100% of the time obviously, but you could really make something that's fun to use.

Laid out like a synth... but what synth?

My most used softsynths are so diverse... but even the most basic thing such as osc waveform, some have 2-3 to choose from, some have 20... some can blend between waveforms and some are discrete steps. Some you can draw your own waveforms and others import them.

Seems really hard to not get lots of menus or generic controls which then are really hard to remember.

[Echoes in the Attic]

This kind of thing comes up fairly often and the only solution to full physical control of synths in midi controllers comes from either the Novation SL series or the Nektar Panorama. But with either of these you also need synths that have every single control (including menu items and buttons) automatable (ie. visible to the host application). And of course some synths are much better laid out. Some complex synths, especially anything modular with infinite devices and routing, just doesn't work with a midi controller and is best to use a good old mouse or a touch screen.

I've recently gone mobile with light gear and a touch screen hybrid, so I don't have a bunch of gear but if I do have a big set up again I would go for the Nektar Panorama over the SL. The thing that always bugged me about the SL range was that you have to page up and down to different parameter pages one at a time. This is a total workflow killer. You need a method to jump directly to a given page. Nektar allows this and allows the pages to be named. This is key to quit navigation and means that 16 knobs, 8 faders and 8 buttons should be enough. It boggles my mind that a company like NI, who did so well with maschine, released a keyboard designed to control plug-ins with only 8 knobs, ZERO buttons, and also does not allow direct navigation to a page. Are you seriously supposed to hit page over 23 times to get to the 24th page of your plug-in mapping? And yeah you need that many pages when there's only 8 controls. So my money would go to Nektar.

Anyways, there are many synths out there that allow full control of every parameter (or every one you'd need for sound design), like the GForce synths, some of the RP synths like predator, the older Tone2 synths, the non-Zebra u-he synths (Zebra is too modular, however the other ones like bazille and ACE even allow automation of the cables so you can turn a knob to change the cable routing), Waldorf synths, Poly-Ana, Sylenth1, Spire (though a lot of controls!), plenty of freebies like OBXD, Dexed, and plenty of little synths like phoscyon and Axon etc. And lots more I'm sure I haven't tried. Arturia has even smartened up lately with the Matrix-12 which is fully automatable. And if you use the Nektar, you could even get great mappings our of Reaktor and Kontakt since the Nektar allows PRESET specific mapping as opposed to the Novation which is plug-in specific.

So yeah people that say you can't get a good hardware experience with plug-ins and a midi controller are full of it. Yes you can, but not with all VSTs of course. You need the type of VST that is designed like hardware and the right midi controller. The ones mentioned above give a very similar experience to using a hardware synth if you lay out the mapping sensibly with a control that shows the parameter names on some kind of screen.

[pdxindy]

Anyways, there are many synths out there that allow full control of every parameter (or every one you'd need for sound design), like the GForce synths, some of the RP synths like predator, the older Tone2 synths, the non-Zebra u-he synths (Zebra is too modular, however the other ones like bazille and ACE even allow automation of the cables so you can turn a knob to change the cable routing), Waldorf synths, Poly-Ana, Sylenth1, Spire (though a lot of controls!), plenty of freebies like OBXD, Dexed, and plenty of little synths like phoscyon and Axon etc. And lots more I'm sure I haven't tried. Arturia has even smartened up lately with the Matrix-12 which is fully automatable. And if you use the Nektar, you could even get great mappings our of Reaktor and Kontakt since the Nektar allows PRESET specific mapping as opposed to the Novation which is plug-in specific.

So yeah people that say you can't get a good hardware experience with plug-ins and a midi controller are full of it. Yes you can, but not with all VSTs of course. You need the type of VST that is designed like hardware and the right midi controller. The ones mentioned above give a very similar experience to using a hardware synth if you lay out the mapping sensibly with a control that shows the parameter names on some kind of screen.

At some point I may get a Panorama to use with Bitwig. I agree with you that it is the best thing currently out there. It can be very good as a performance controller... but for sound design? no way...

I can do sound design in Bazille far faster with my mouse. With my screen and mouse, there is no need to remember pages and what parameters are on which page. The mouse is like a magnitude faster and requires no memorization.

My iPad Pro and Pencil can function as a graphics tablet. So I can display the Bazille GUI and edit. It's not multi-touch but the Pencil may be accurate enough to be fluid and precise. I haven't tried it yet to see how it works.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Laid out like a synth... but what synth?

A generic one. Oscs in the top left, ADSR's on the right, filters in the top middle...VA's tend to follow a basic layout. A MIDI controller could be designed to follow this generic layout.

Anyway, I posted my personal wishlist on page 1 but I'll add it here too. I think this covers a LOT of the basics for a 3 osc VA. If a VA isn't 3 oscs, that's a whole extra set of knobs available for mapping to other parameters.

Obviously, these would just be "recommended" mappings, but even if you were using another synth that wasn't a VA, having 40+ parameters to control would still certainly be better than any existing controller on the market.

I'm imagining:

Keyboard:
61 semi-weighted keys
Pitchbend and Modulation wheels

Oscillator Section (12 knobs, 6 buttons):
1 knob each for 1) Osc 1 Waveform, 2) Osc Tuning, 3) Osc Volume now multiply that by 3 oscillators
6 assignable buttons
1 knob each for 1) Osc Mod depth, 2) Env Amount, 3) Pulsewidth

Filter Section (7 knobs)
1 knob each for 1) Filter cutoff, 2) resonance, 3) filter envelope amount, 4) filter mod depth 5) keyboard tracking, 6) FM, 7) HP

LFO Section (4 knobs, 2 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) LFO speed, 2) LFO Depth x2 LFO's
2 buttons

Filter Envelope (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR

Amp Envelop (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR
4 buttons below each fader

Master Section (4 knobs, 4 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) master volume, 2) glide
2 extra knobs (for effects, or other non-standard controls)
4 buttons

Tally that up and you should end up with something like 24 knobs, 14 buttons, and 8 faders (could also do knobs) for 46 total parameters (not including pitch/mod wheels and the keyboard).

Let's say a company were targetting a price of $1,000 USD street...I'd be all in.

[rod_zero]

If a synth is going to be used as a midi controller get one with as much controls as possible



just add a keybed of your liking.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

If a synth is going to be used as a midi controller get one with as much controls as possible



just add a keybed of your liking.

In terms of what I'm looking for, that's pretty darn close. I just wish there was a 49 or 61 key version (there's a 25 key) as I've got limited desk space.

[aMUSEd]

If a synth is going to be used as a midi controller get one with as much controls as possible



just add a keybed of your liking.

Nice one, might try that

[pdxindy]

Laid out like a synth... but what synth?

A generic one. Oscs in the top left, ADSR's on the right, filters in the top middle...VA's tend to follow a basic layout. A MIDI controller could be designed to follow this generic layout.

I'm imagining:

Keyboard:
61 semi-weighted keys
Pitchbend and Modulation wheels

Oscillator Section (12 knobs, 6 buttons):
1 knob each for 1) Osc 1 Waveform, 2) Osc Tuning, 3) Osc Volume now multiply that by 3 oscillators
6 assignable buttons
1 knob each for 1) Osc Mod depth, 2) Env Amount, 3) Pulsewidth

Filter Section (7 knobs)
1 knob each for 1) Filter cutoff, 2) resonance, 3) filter envelope amount, 4) filter mod depth 5) keyboard tracking, 6) FM, 7) HP

LFO Section (4 knobs, 2 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) LFO speed, 2) LFO Depth x2 LFO's
2 buttons

Filter Envelope (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR

Amp Envelop (4 faders, 4 buttons)
1 fader each for ADSR
4 buttons below each fader

Master Section (4 knobs, 4 buttons)
1 knob each for 1) master volume, 2) glide
2 extra knobs (for effects, or other non-standard controls)
4 buttons

Tally that up and you should end up with something like 24 knobs, 14 buttons, and 8 faders (could also do knobs) for 46 total parameters (not including pitch/mod wheels and the keyboard).

Let's say a company were targetting a price of $1,000 USD street...I'd be all in.

The thing is, there are so many variations...
plenty of softsynths envelopes are AHDSR's or DADSR's and/or also have slope controls
LFO's frequently have phase and/or delay
Filters can have morph control like the SEM LP<->BP<->HP
Then how do you deal with a mod matrix?
No mention of FX
Plenty of softsynths also have step sequencer/arpeggiators

Maybe that sort of controller would suit you fine with a particular set of softsynths you use. But for many of the most popular synths, it would not work well. Seems like an expensive controller for a very narrow range of softsynths it can be effective with.

Thinking about some of the popular synths around here... Serum, Spire, Dune, Zebra, Hive... what you described would be clunky or simply not possible with all of them.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Thinking about some of the popular synths around here... Serum, Spire, Dune, Zebra, Hive... what you described would be clunky or simply not possible with all of them.

Look...I'd take any 49 to 61 key MIDI keyboard controller with 24 to 48 knobs, at least 8 faders, and a nice handful buttons (pitch and mod wheels too) even if it wasn't laid out like a standard subtractive VA. There's nothing like that either though!

The 25-key Roland Synth1 is the closest. The Synth-1m is close with no keyboard. Next up is the Prophet-08 or Virus Ti. Hence why I feel like modern controllers just aren't doing the job. Everyone could benefit from having more controls and all any of these companies release is more 8 faders/8 knobs/8 pads controllers that just don't cut it IMO.

[DJ Warmonger]

just add a keybed of your liking.

You guys keep forgetting it's actually eurorack version of original synth that comes WITH keyboard.