Jazz Lessons Blowing My Simple Mind Here

[Mister Natural]

have been kinda stuck with the same melodic shapes(mostly Dorian), the same chord shapes for a while now & gave myself a Christmas present this past holiday - Jazz guitar lessons

the first couple of lessons were great. Refreshing. Pentatonic is a lot more important than I used to think(see Pat Martino, see Mingus). Working on some arpeggios of 7th chords, etc

then last week; teacher starts with a straight blues chord progression. "Look at all this empty space in the bars between the I - IV - V - I." He starts with the II of the I - then the II of the II to the V of the II over the I . . . and my head is freaking spinning trying to keep up with the changes while trying to solo over tonality that is such a moving target.

you guys have any tips on how to . . . track mentally where the tonality is going - where an improvisation is headed before the next change hits(for lack of a better way of putting it) ?

or is it just "practice, practice, practice" ?

[Winstontaneous]

I've been playing jazz bass for 30 years now.

The most important concepts I can share:
- you are playing "over" the changes - connecting what came before to what follows next, during each present moment. I know that sounds incredibly obvious, but it's different from playing "on top of" one chord, and then the next.
- so much of jazz is about exploiting the fact that the V7 chord "wants" to resolve to the I. The stock line is that this is due to the tritone between the major 3rd & b7; I also think it's because the equal-tempered b7 is so sharp compared to the actual 7th harmonic that the ear wants it to go down.
- I only started to become a convincing jazz soloist when I began singing along with my playing. It forces you to make your phrases "breathe", you play more melodically, and it develops your ear.
- if you haven't already, be aware of all the different ways you can approach the next chord root, both chromatically and diatonically. That's Jazz Bass 101 - play I/V on the 1 and 3, making the notes on 2 and 4 either the closest chromatic or diatonic neighboring tone. It's a good way to develop a "grammatically correct" approach to hearing your way through the changes. Root motion obviously isn't everything, but since the lowest note defines what the chord actually "is" it's very important.

[MadBrain]

I follow the bass. Then, something like "V of V" means "the bass goes up a 4th (to V)".

[Mister Natural]

...you are playing "over" the changes - connecting what came before to what follows next, during each present moment...

interesting way of thinking about it - would "bridging" the changes be another way of putting it ?

...so much of jazz is about exploiting the fact that the V7 chord "wants" to resolve to the I. The stock line is that this is due to the tritone between the major 3rd & b7; I also think it's because the equal-tempered b7 is so sharp compared to the actual 7th harmonic that the ear wants it to go down

this is also so far over my head ... but I'll ponder that "tension"

...I only started to become a convincing jazz soloist when I began singing along with my playing. It forces you to make your phrases "breathe", you play more melodically, and it develops your ear

that's just beautifully put

...if you haven't already, be aware of all the different ways you can approach the next chord root, both chromatically and diatonically. That's Jazz Bass 101 - play I/V on the 1 and 3, making the notes on 2 and 4 either the closest chromatic or diatonic neighboring tone. It's a good way to develop a "grammatically correct" approach to hearing your way through the changes. Root motion obviously isn't everything, but since the lowest note defines what the chord actually "is" it's very important.

I was thinking of a classic "walking" bass line when my Sensei was trying to help little Grasshopper understand these changes within changes

[tapper mike]

Practice, practice, practice.
It isn't your brain that's causing the issue it's your muscle memory association. You've had years and years of playing how you play now. That's hardwired. Learning something different later in the game can be a huge obstacle (trust me, see below)

I know you may not be into this approach but... get some accompaniment behind you (biab for example) when you practice. Yes it will sound strange when you use this approach at first. Even though you've prolly heard it used by jazz players infinitum. That's only at first.

Last week I got a linnstrument and I'm trying to learn it as a desktop instrument.
Everything is upside down and backwards.

Jeff makes it look easy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQAtdjJcOt8

I'm still fighting through major scales and simple primary chord progressions. But everyday I get up and say to myself... Time to practice. and on rare occasions I see some progress.

[stillshaded]

jazz guitarist here..

Mike is correct. Practice is key.

When I started playing jazz, I think I put too much focus on intellectualizing everything. Eventually I realized that just doing stuff over and over and over again is the only way. Let's face it, soloing over changes is very difficult. If it wasn't, wouldn't everybody be doing it? I'm still amazed that the human brain is able to pull it off. But somehow, we are able to.

Now, I do think it is very important to memorize a bunch of stuff. Do yourself a big favor and make a bunch of flash cards. Make sure you know your key signatures lightning quick. But also, you'll want to make cards that say "V in Db" on one side, and "Ab7" on the other. You'll need to know this stuff super fast. It takes time, but it's not as hard as you think. At first I wondered if I was smart enough to be fast with all this stuff.. but I realized that the human brain will be fast at anything you do over and over again, with consistency.

But most importantly, you need to practice. A lot. However, I also strongly recommend that you take it slowly and in small chunks. Focus on four bars of a tune at a time, and focus on using one concept on it at a time. For instance, you might say "for each chord, i'm going to start on the third, walk up to the ninth and then play down the arpeggio".. coming up with brain teasers like this is super good. I think one of the best and most basic exercises is this: play the arpeggio of each chord.. but when the chord changes, dont start at the 1 of the next chord.. go to this nearest chord tone of the next chord, and continue the arpeggio in the same direction. I always thought is was kind of dumb that so many teachers tell you to just play the arpeggio of each chords starting on the one. It kind of forms a bad habit. You can also do this with scale... then you can do it with patterns within scales and arpeggios.

This stuff will really make a difference. But like I said, do it in small chunks. don't overwhelm yourself. And as someone else saidL sing while you play. this is definitely an awesome thing to do.


good luck!

[ImNotDedYet]

What a fantastic thread! I started taking jazz piano lessons a year ago after twenty years away from lessons, and classical at that. It unfortunately took away all the "magic" I thought occurred in jazz.

A lot of great comments in here - comments I need to take to heart. Because my piano playing is so engrained in playing block chords and re-attacking every once in a while that playing interesting chords is very "out there" for me. So I appreciate the tips.

quote="Winstontaneous"]...so much of jazz is about exploiting the fact that the V7 chord "wants" to resolve to the I. The stock line is that this is due to the tritone between the major 3rd & b7; I also think it's because the equal-tempered b7 is so sharp compared to the actual 7th harmonic that the ear wants it to go down

this is also so far over my head ... but I'll ponder that "tension"

You know what a tritone is right? It's three whole tones from a note - either up or down from the note as it's the exact middle of the keys (I'm thinking in piano terms) between an octave. So, the tritone for C is F#, and so on... The V7 chord contains a tritone between the major third of the chord and minor 7th of the chord. So, take the G7chord, the major third is B, the minor 7th is F, which is a tritone, which sounds horrible when played together solo. And it's also why you can tritone substitute the bii chord for the dominant V chord. The major 3rd of the V is the minor 7th of the bii, and the minor 7th of the V is the major 3rd of the bii. And the 3rd and 7th are the two notes in a chord that indicate what type of chord you're playing, assuming you're playing root-less chords so the bass player has some notes to play.

Now, when you consider that whole schpiel, you can also take into consideration bass movement. Instead of going ii - V - I, you can now go ii - bii - I to get an even stronger (chromatic) bass motion while still getting the feeling of resolution you get from the V7 - I.

[musicman714]

Sure there many theoretical approaches to tackling a chord progression. Think of some simple tactics, like committing the chords to memory. I spent a lot of time singing the bass/roots of Confirmation while saying the notes, in time. Program a midi file to sing to. Work a variety of exercises over the chords as well as writing out solos that sound improvised. Work the heck out of all of it, then forget all of it and just improvise. It's important to study how to study, really important.

[Meffy]

Being kind of thick-headed when it comes to this sort of thing, I was pleased to read the theory part of Nuffink's ChordSpace documentation. I learned more in a few paragraphs than in hundreds of pages of too-scholarly, too-academic texts.

http://www.chordspace.com/Intro.htm

I love the idea of ChordSpace and wish I could get it working on my current version of Sonar. Will keep at it; it's a fantastic tool for a scrub like me who needs help crafting non-trivial harmonies and outfitting them with melodies beyond the simplistic.

P.S.: In the interest of full disclosure, I can't claim to have become competent at jazz after reading those pages. But at least now I have some idea why I'm not much good at it… and a fighting chance at some day improving. :-}

[zarapr]

Jazz lessons j'adore

[tapper mike]

https://www.facebook.com/chuck.vanriper ... 275839507/

[keyman_sam]

Love this thread. Jazz lessons blew my mind too, but I haven't soaked in the information yet. As already mentioned, I need to practice to get more fluid with the concepts I learned. Tritone substitution was one that I found fascinating. More so when I saw the concepts applied to the jazz standards.

However I've started learning some jazz standards on the guitar and the more I learn the less 'mysterious' they seem.

[tapper mike]

Most standards don't follow more advanced applications. It's the interpretations of those standards which utilize advanced substitutions or variations.

Take the original version of the standard and give it a good listen,,,then listen to how it is interpreted by a master like.. Bill Evans.

That's the thing about jazz which makes it all worthwhile to me. It's not just about playing a standard it's about interpretation / improvisation. Something that has been long lost in most music and is devoid in "Smooth Jazz" Every cover is "Play it the way it was" not "interpret / improvise"

After my years as a jazz musician had passed. It was near impossible to actually jam with serious jazz players. I'd actually pay to play with guitar teachers (some were hacks when it comes to jazz) Thank god for http://pgmusic.com Band in a Box.

I'd actually move away from that type of "ensemble" playing for soloist guitar playing. More like Tapper Mike meets Tim Lerch and I'd do my own arrangements.

Chord Melody for guitar and for piano are like different universes. Block chords like the Shearing Method can't happen on the guitar you might get three of the 5 notes but you aren't going to be hopping around the neck playing complete melody lines.

All of the above is humbly lost now. I'm starting from scratch playing the linnstrument just trying to work out scales and chords.

[keyman_sam]

Most standards don't follow more advanced applications. It's the interpretations of those standards which utilize advanced substitutions or variations.

Take the original version of the standard and give it a good listen,,,then listen to how it is interpreted by a master like.. Bill Evans.

That's the thing about jazz which makes it all worthwhile to me. It's not just about playing a standard it's about interpretation / improvisation. Something that has been long lost in most music and is devoid in "Smooth Jazz" Every cover is "Play it the way it was" not "interpret / improvise"

After my years as a jazz musician had passed. It was near impossible to actually jam with serious jazz players. I'd actually pay to play with guitar teachers (some were hacks when it comes to jazz) Thank god for http://pgmusic.com Band in a Box.

I'd actually move away from that type of "ensemble" playing for soloist guitar playing. More like Tapper Mike meets Tim Lerch and I'd do my own arrangements.

Chord Melody for guitar and for piano are like different universes. Block chords like the Shearing Method can't happen on the guitar you might get three of the 5 notes but you aren't going to be hopping around the neck playing complete melody lines.

All of the above is humbly lost now. I'm starting from scratch playing the linnstrument just trying to work out scales and chords.

Interesting..which version of BIAB do you have? I'm looking at their options and they go from 100 bucks to nearly a grand. What is your review/use case of the version you use? Could you please post some examples?

[tapper mike]

I'm using 2014 I bought the megapak version

It really depends on you which version you buy. Even if you get the cheapest version you are getting a lot out of it. I've got thousands of biab styles in the old midi format a few in the new super midi and a few of the new real tracks.

You don't need the real tracks. (though they sound amazing) The audiofile edition has higher quality real tracks and that's about it.

If you buy consider joining the Yahoo Group
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Band-in-a-Box-Files
The archive has every jazz standard ever written in biab format plus others. It's massive.

I've been using biab since about y2k.
The only thing that sucks is the midi in. If you want to play along via midi. Either open a host in a different window and run from there or open the biab file in RealBand(daw included with biab)