Arturia Matrix 12 vs Jupiter 8?

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fluffy_little_something wrote:
fmr wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:So, could something modern like Falcon replace those two as well?
IMO, no. And Falcon wasn't even trying that. It's in a league of its own, like Zebra is, and all other modern BIG synths. Each one tries to come up with something unique on its own, not replacing anything else.
Yes, but one might think that something so powerful should easily be able to replace at least the Jupiter 8, as an unintended side effect so to speak, a warm-up exercise :hihi:
I may try some standard patches to "warm up", as you say, but there are so many great possibilities to explore (the IRCAM granular and multigranular, the wavetable, the pluck, the IRCAM Stretch, and all the combinations possible, the extraordinary sample engine, the superb FX - 80 of them and many absolute gems included), that I don't see myself wasting time on emulating the Jupiter or anything else, for that matter.
Fernando (FMR)

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fluffy_little_something wrote:
Ingonator wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:So, could something modern like Falcon replace those two as well?
Even if i like Falcon very much and it has a multimode filter inspired by the Oberheim Xpander (with many additional modes) so far i had a hard time to get similar sounds as in Matrix-12V. While that filter in Falcon sounds graet on it'S own it does not really seem to nail the real thing.

Concerning emulating the Jupiter 8 Falcon is not closer than any other VA synth would be.

Anyway Falcon could do tons of stuff not possible with any of the Arturia emulations. With a sample based approach theoretically you could emulate any synth with it, like UVI had tried in many of their vintage synth libraries.
Maybe you will manage once you know it inside out. Many plugins seem to have their own secrets and tricks that take a while to discover and master.
it's not just a matter of features (which seems to be hard to understand for some people...). A Jupiter 8 has a very specific sound also based on that filter that is not so easy to emulate. To that you could add the oscillators, enveloeps etc. that have an influcence on how the synth sounds.

Beside that some special featres like e.g. Sync and FM/crossmodulation could only be emulated in a limited way with Falcon. The "Anlog" Osc module has Sync but you do not have control about the second waveform used for the Sync (just On/Off and pitch modulation of the oscillator used for the sync).
With the "Analog Stack" oscillator you could Sync Oscs 2-8 to Osc 1 and also have cobntrol over the waveforms but that osc module has no dedivated Unison like the "Analog" module (while you coudl use a global Unison).
Both Analog osc modules do not allow to do FM/Crossmodulation. You could just emulate this by using a Multi envelope module at very high rates and drwaing a waveform there (presets for some waveforms like e.g. Sine are included)
There is a dedicated 4 operator FM module but this could not emulate FM/crossmodulation like in an analog synth (also has no choices for waveforms).

So both sound and feature wise there are some problems to properly emulate a Jupiter 8 in Falcon (and also in many or even most other synths).

Of course in Falcon you could try to create a sample based library but then you need samples of a real Jupiter 8 or someone else taht does it for you (like e.g. UVI themselves). Still with samples while sampled patches could sound very similar you would be very limited when creating your own patches as that would again involve using the filter etc. built-in with Falcon and could lead to bigger differences compared to the real thing or a dedcated emulation like Jupiter 8V and Diva.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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You could pay well over 2 Million dollars for a vintage Ferrari but for less than $100,000 you could buy a Corvette Z06 that would outperform it at every level. The same is true for vintage synths.....over priced and under powered..... :wink:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Teksonik wrote:You could pay well over 2 Million dollars for a vintage Ferrari but for less than $100,000 you could buy a Corvette Z06 that would outperform it at every level. The same is true for vintage synths.....over priced and under powered..... :wink:
Cars are not my game, but I totally understand what you mean :lol:
Fernando (FMR)

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OK, I did not expect that frankly, I thought for Falcon any features of the J8 should be peanuts 8) Since that is not the case as you say, Falcon case closed :)

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Teksonik wrote:You could pay well over 2 Million dollars for a vintage Ferrari but for less than $100,000 you could buy a Corvette Z06 that would outperform it at every level. The same is true for vintage synths.....over priced and under powered..... :wink:
But I love old Ferraris :D but you are right, we should take things for what they are, even nostalgia. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we value things more than for sheer features, thus all the attempts at emulations. Arturia's synths probably sell as much for their visual familiarity as any sounds they make. I personally like them, and think they fit a good place in the market, they aren't the best but they are affordable, cpu efficient for the most part, and enjoyed by many. I'm ok if part of that success is some yearning for a connection to the history of synthesis.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new

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fluffy_little_something wrote:OK, I did not expect that frankly, I thought for Falcon any features of the J8 should be peanuts 8) Since that is not the case as you say, Falcon case closed :)
...and as alraedy mentioned even if you got all the features it is still a question of the sound as long a you do not have dedicated Jupiter 8 modules like in e.g. Diva, especially the filter.


Why would e.g. Diva include 5 different filter modules based o different synths if they would sound similar? . The included Jupiter 8 and jupiter 6 filters actually sound different (Jupiter 6 is a multimode filter with) modes). Even the two revisions of the included MS-20 filter (changed by a selector switch) do sound different whiel they are based on the same synth.
The Jupiter 8 filter module in Diva has a switch too to switch between a Jupiter 8 and Juno 60 filter character.
Last edited by Ingonator on Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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Wow, it is painfully obvious from some of the responses in this thread that it is not fully understood what goes into making a synth sound the way it does.

I love Falcon, but there is no way it's going to sound like an Oberheim or Jupiter or any synth for that matter. It is not an emulator. It was not meant to be an emulator. It is an all around mega synth along the lines of Zebra 2, Omnisphere, etc.

That doesn't make Falcon a crappy synth or disappointing because it can't sound like a 4 voice, ECS, Prophet 5 or whatever your analog synth of choice is.

And for the record, Falcon can't even come close to sounding like a CS80.

But who cares?

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Exactly, why would any new softsynth waste time trying to emulate some ancient crappy hardware synth ?
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Teksonik wrote:Exactly, why would any new softsynth waste time trying to emulate some ancient crappy hardware synth ?
Well, that's another discussion altogether but some people are looking for a very specific sound that only that synth can give them.

I'll leave it at that.

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wagtunes wrote:Wow, it is painfully obvious from some of the responses in this thread that it is not fully understood what goes into making a synth sound the way it does.

I love Falcon, but there is no way it's going to sound like an Oberheim or Jupiter or any synth for that matter. It is not an emulator. It was not meant to be an emulator. It is an all around mega synth along the lines of Zebra 2, Omnisphere, etc.

That doesn't make Falcon a crappy synth or disappointing because it can't sound like a 4 voice, ECS, Prophet 5 or whatever your analog synth of choice is.

And for the record, Falcon can't even come close to sounding like a CS80.

But who cares?
Sure, every hardware synth has its specific set of components and its particular architecture, which lead to a unique (not necessarily in the sense of great) sound. But I am no synth freak, there is nothing magic about any synth, so it might as well be possible to come very close to any hardware synth, if one has the skills and time to tweak the software right right, provided it is a very flexible quality plugin.

Think of that OP-X Pro synth, it is an Oberheim clone, yet does J8 sounds well. And why? Because the sound designer has the skills to do it.

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fluffy_little_something wrote: Think of that OP-X Pro synth, it is an Oberheim clone, yet does J8 sounds well. And why? Because the sound designer has the skills to do it.
But some sounds were not possible to be recreated properly which Peter from Sonicprojects had admitted.
Same about the Jupiter 8 patches for Oxium.
Both synths (OP-X Pro II and Oxium) would have big troubles recreating certain MAtrix 12 patches as tehy simple do miss some features. There are some Matrix patches for OP-X Pro but those use only the features included with that plugin.

Recreating a single or few patches wit ha different synth is usually simple even if it could take some time but with more patches it will get more difficult until a point where it does no longer work. This is especially the case for advanced features like e.g. high filter resonance, Osc Sync, crossmodulation/FM and also PWM.
Anyway concerning the Jupiter 8 even with soem more simple patches it could be VEYR difficult to actually nail the sound with another synth. Also the envelope behaviour could add some problems there which is especially true for patches that highly depend on a filter envelope like e.g. Synth Brass sounds or Resonant sweeps.
Ingo Weidner
Win 10 Home 64-bit / mobile i7-7700HQ 2.8 GHz / 16GB RAM //
Live 10 Suite / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Pro Tools Ultimate 2021 // NI Komplete Kontrol S61 Mk1

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Regarding the envelopes, a simple control like on Element could be pretty useful (although in v1 the envelopes as such were a bit odd, but I think they have corrected that in v2).

Nailing it, well, I doubt anyone expects software to nail hardware completely, that would be unrealistic. Getting very close is usually enough. And maybe there is not even a point in nailing it 100% when the software does it better, anyway.

People often cite extreme patches as an argument, but the signature sound of a given synth is usually not extreme at all, but instead fairly simple such as J8 pads.

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fluffy_little_something wrote:Regarding the envelopes, a simple control like on Element could be pretty useful (although in v1 the envelopes as such were a bit odd, but I think they have corrected that in v2).

Nailing it, well, I doubt anyone expects software to nail hardware completely, that would be unrealistic. Getting very close is usually enough. And maybe there is not even a point in nailing it 100% when the software does it better, anyway.

People often cite extreme patches as an argument, but the signature sound of a given synth is usually not extreme at all, but instead fairly simple such as J8 pads.
Then for that matter you don't need an "emulation." Get a rompler with a few synth controls and you're done.

But if you want your Synth X to sound like Synth X in every way conceivable and program any sound that can be made with Synth X, then you either need Synth X or something that we don't have quite yet.

And this has nothing to do with which synth sounds "better" because that's all subjective junk. This has to do with how much you want your synth to sound like that vintage piece of hardware in every possible way.

I love Diva, but I have yet to hear it sound like any of the hardware synths I used to have when trying to program those "outside the box" sounds, nor have I heard any emulation pull it off.

Are all these emulations good enough for bread and butter stuff? Absolutely. But for the more obscure sounds, forget it. They're simply not made to handle them because of the hardware vs software limitations and/or functions that they simply left out of the emulation.

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Teksonik wrote:Exactly, why would any new softsynth waste time trying to emulate some ancient crappy hardware synth ?
Woah! Because people want to buy them. But let's be clear about something, neither the M12 nor the Jupiter 8 qualify as "crappy hardware" no matter what you think about them. Both are historic instruments. My criticism of M12 emulations is only related to the fact that what was really cool in the late 80s isn't all that interesting anymore.

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