Why are hardware synths such a hassle incorporating into computer DAWs?

[mcnoone]

As you go, problems will crop up in certain scenarios, which when solved, you need to also write down!

Yes because a template only saves within the daw, but then I forget what settings I had in the mac os midi audio setup, and there's where things seem to be wrong for me.

[sin night]

You can save templates in AudioMidi Configuration too (at least on recent versions of osx, I don't remember if it was possible on older versions like Snow Leopard). But, honestly, I think you don't need to bother with Audio Midi configuration if you have only an external synth. I find it useful to rename midi ports and so on, but in my opinion it makes sense on larger setups; I never bothered with that when I had only one or two external devices.

By leaving the default Audio Midi configuration unmodified, then it's all up to Logic (and connecting and turning on any device before starting it).

[samsam]

HW is more work sure, but IMO worth it. No pain, no gain.

[Jace-BeOS]

I'm not going to give you the usual "user error" BS. Yes: it's a pain in the ass. It always was. Things actually got much better but when you compare it to software-only setups, it's still a pain in the ass.

You need to do the following:

1. Plug everything in.

2. Write down on a chart where stuff goes (I keep a chart in Numbers on my Mac).

3. Configure the midi hardware in Mac OS X's Audio MIDI Setup so that Logic gives you proper names for devices instead of meaningless port names.

4. Create a template project in Logic that has your hardware ready to use. Make all projects from that template. Use the External Hardware plugin for this, not the external synthesizer MIDI track.

5. Turn on external devices first and start Logic last.

6. Never unplug anything.

Even doing this, I find it a PITA. Hell, my simple MIDI controller won't stay functional without disconnecting it and reconnecting it. It was fine for years but now it just randomly stops communicating. So does my control surface (though the audio device in the same hardware remains operational).

The fact is, computer stuff is a pain in the ass. It is as such for everyone, but not all people are bothered the same. Not all people experience the myriad annoyances either. In the days before software synths were king, hardware was supported actively by developers. Today, not so much. But the hardware and the interfacing is more powerful and somewhat more convenient, though more temperamental, these days.

Logic 8 was already aiming more at internal features than external hardware support. You can do it all, but it's not without effort. Each time I sit down to use my hardware synths, some kind of annoyance puts me off. For the Korg M3m, it's the dead touch screen. For everything overall, it's the interfacing. I have so much stuff to connect that I have digital routers. I have to turn on at least seven (maybe eight) pieces of hardware (including the computer) if I want to use external gear. Five if I skip the external synths (computer, if asleep or off, audio device/control surface, mixer and both monitors). If I use the external gear, I have to find out which ports everything is going to/from and set the routers to the necessary settings. Then I have to change the sound device to external digital audio clock, because it won't sync external digital signals on internal clock.

There's nothing immediate about it; it's a pain in the ass. There's no magic wand to get it all working together instantly. Until someone comes up with a way to plug a pile of equipment into each other and not require settings and routing configuration, it's going to stay this way. Do you see hardware makers and software developers all getting together and making a new universal standard any time soon? It was a minor human miracle that MIDI was even established as a near-universal standard, and that's old, archaic and dying a little every year.

[mcnoone]

I'm not going to give you the usual "user error" BS. Yes: it's a pain in the ass. It always was. Things actually got much better but when you compare it to software-only setups, it's still a pain in the ass.

You need to do the following:

1. Plug everything in.

2. Write down on a chart where stuff goes (I keep a chart in Numbers on my Mac).

3. Configure the midi hardware in Mac OS X's Audio MIDI Setup so that Logic gives you proper names for devices instead of meaningless port names.

4. Create a template project in Logic that has your hardware ready to use. Make all projects from that template. Use the External Hardware plugin for this, not the external synthesizer MIDI track.

5. Turn on external devices first and start Logic last.

6. Never unplug anything.

Even doing this, I find it a PITA. Hell, my simple MIDI controller won't stay functional without disconnecting it and reconnecting it. It was fine for years but now it just randomly stops communicating. So does my control surface (though the audio device in the same hardware remains operational).

The fact is, computer stuff is a pain in the ass. It is as such for everyone, but not all people are bothered the same. Not all people experience the myriad annoyances either. In the days before software synths were king, hardware was supported actively by developers. Today, not so much. But the hardware and the interfacing is more powerful and somewhat more convenient, though more temperamental, these days.

Logic 8 was already aiming more at internal features than external hardware support. You can do it all, but it's not without effort. Each time I sit down to use my hardware synths, some kind of annoyance puts me off. For the Korg M3m, it's the dead touch screen. For everything overall, it's the interfacing. I have so much stuff to connect that I have digital routers. I have to turn on at least seven (maybe eight) pieces of hardware (including the computer) if I want to use external gear. Five if I skip the external synths (computer, if asleep or off, audio device/control surface, mixer and both monitors). If I use the external gear, I have to find out which ports everything is going to/from and set the routers to the necessary settings. Then I have to change the sound device to external digital audio clock, because it won't sync external digital signals on internal clock.

There's nothing immediate about it; it's a pain in the ass. There's no magic wand to get it all working together instantly. Until someone comes up with a way to plug a pile of equipment into each other and not require settings and routing configuration, it's going to stay this way. Do you see hardware makers and software developers all getting together and making a new universal standard any time soon? It was a minor human miracle that MIDI was even established as a near-universal standard, and that's old, archaic and dying a little every year.

Thanks for the advice. That's a lot there.
It's already happened where I should have written the settings down.
I got the midi and audio going in Live8 (lite version) once, though the latency was horrible. I then figured I could remember all that I did to achieve that. Yet I couldn't figure it out again, when I went back in a few days later. I should have written the settings down, or take screen shots. Only thing is, I need to do it in Logic, as it doesn't have limitations like the live lite version. I'll figure it out.

[mcnoone]

You can save templates in AudioMidi Configuration too (at least on recent versions of osx, I don't remember if it was possible on older versions like Snow Leopard). But, honestly, I think you don't need to bother with Audio Midi configuration if you have only an external synth. I find it useful to rename midi ports and so on, but in my opinion it makes sense on larger setups; I never bothered with that when I had only one or two external devices.

By leaving the default Audio Midi configuration unmodified, then it's all up to Logic (and connecting and turning on any device before starting it).

Yes there is a save function there.
I just need to do some screenshots and just remember how I did things before.

[Jace-BeOS]

Yeah so here I am irritated with technology again, after spending time trying to integrate my hardware into the computer setup. As I said above, what a PITFA.

Just this morning I wasted four frigging hours on hardware setups that refused to be sensible and comprehensible. I only changed one cable (added, not removed), and had my chart to reference. All I wanted to do was try out my Virus TI as an effects unit.

In the end, I discovered that the Virus TI will not sync to external digital clocks despite having said feature. I also learned that the tc electronic Konnekt x32 will not synch ADAT without using the SRC button, which then makes SRC unavailable to the S/PDIF connection. Even if you're only using ONE pair of channels in an ADAT line, it uses all four sample rate converters for ADAT. No amount of external clocking helps when devices refuse to synch to external clocks!! What a waste of money it was to buy a word clock device.

I RE-discovered that Logic, in sheer idiocy, will MUTE the outputs to hardware devices if you solo a track, which you might want to do if you're using the I/O plugin for external hardware effects or the external synth plugin!! Oh it won't mute the stereo main out, but it mutes other hardware outs.

After searching all around the web for answers, I found myself at the same Logic forum thread I posted to in April (about the same goddamned thing). You have to "solo-safe" the output device object in the Environment so this doesn't happen.

So,if you run into that one...

[justin3am]

I remember when I first got my MS2000r I ran into similar issues but at the time I was really just over complicating things. I also had the impression that things needed to be 'connected' in the MIDI Studio window of Audio MIDI Setup. I have never actually encountered a case in which it was necessary to route MIDI data that way.

I mainly use Live, Bitwig and Pro Tools (occasionally Reaper, Cubase or Studio One). In these applications, it's merely a matter of creating a MIDI track with the output set to the port associated with the synth which you want to play/sequence from the DAW and then create an audio track which receives audio from the input, to which the synths audio output is connected. You will need to make sure the audio track is armed to record (or at least that monitoring is enabled) and if you are playing a separate keyboard, the MIDI track will need to be armed as well.

In Live and Bitwig, you can create 'Hardware Device' plug-ins (I think this is the case in Logic as well) which will handle all the routing on one track, but I commonly record performances as audio rather than MIDI, so I always need to create a separate audio track anyway.

I've moved to a mostly hardware setup now (in fact, I'm in the process of setting up a large format console and a hard-disk recording system) and at this point the process of setting up hardware synths in different DAWs has become second nature. However, I don't think I've ever encountered a situation where it was necessary to take screen shots of configuration pages to remember how things were set up. All that stuff should remain configured as it was the first time you set it up. For example, I often switch between three different audio interfaces. Bitwig, Live and Pro Tools all remember the configurations of these interfaces discretely, so when I select a different audio interface, the applications just remember how the I/O was configured. The same goes for MIDI Interfaces. I use project templates in the DAW applications which have the Audio and MIDI inputs pre-configured, so as soon as I open the template, I'm ready to go.

Maybe that is the key for you, perhaps you just need to get through the pain of setting up a template project and then when you want to use your hardware synth, make sure to start from the template.

If you like some help, feel free to PM me. I don't know how much help I'll be; I have the least amount of experience with Logic but I do have a lot of experience setting up hardware/DAW hybrid studios.

[mcnoone]

I remember when I first got my MS2000r I ran into similar issues but at the time I was really just over complicating things. I also had the impression that things needed to be 'connected' in the MIDI Studio window of Audio MIDI Setup. I have never actually encountered a case in which it was necessary to route MIDI data that way.

I mainly use Live, Bitwig and Pro Tools (occasionally Reaper, Cubase or Studio One). In these applications, it's merely a matter of creating a MIDI track with the output set to the port associated with the synth which you want to play/sequence from the DAW and then create an audio track which receives audio from the input, to which the synths audio output is connected. You will need to make sure the audio track is armed to record (or at least that monitoring is enabled) and if you are playing a separate keyboard, the MIDI track will need to be armed as well.

In Live and Bitwig, you can create 'Hardware Device' plug-ins (I think this is the case in Logic as well) which will handle all the routing on one track, but I commonly record performances as audio rather than MIDI, so I always need to create a separate audio track anyway.

I've moved to a mostly hardware setup now (in fact, I'm in the process of setting up a large format console and a hard-disk recording system) and at this point the process of setting up hardware synths in different DAWs has become second nature. However, I don't think I've ever encountered a situation where it was necessary to take screen shots of configuration pages to remember how things were set up. All that stuff should remain configured as it was the first time you set it up. For example, I often switch between three different audio interfaces. Bitwig, Live and Pro Tools all remember the configurations of these interfaces discretely, so when I select a different audio interface, the applications just remember how the I/O was configured. The same goes for MIDI Interfaces. I use project templates in the DAW applications which have the Audio and MIDI inputs pre-configured, so as soon as I open the template, I'm ready to go.

Maybe that is the key for you, perhaps you just need to get through the pain of setting up a template project and then when you want to use your hardware synth, make sure to start from the template.

If you like some help, feel free to PM me. I don't know how much help I'll be; I have the least amount of experience with Logic but I do have a lot of experience setting up hardware/DAW hybrid studios.

Thanks Justin, that helped a lot. Setting up the tracks in the correct way is another thing that frustrates me. I'll keep trying .

[deastman]

Back in the day, I used to run a bunch of synths live, just like everyone else. I had StudioVision controlling multiple Opcode interfaces with all my synths mapped and named, and the audio going into a 32 channel 8-bus main board and additional rack mounted 32 channel and 16 channel submixers. Yes, it was a huge pain.

Now I keep it simple. I have one long MIDI cable and two long audio cables which are always patched into my interface. I just plug them into whichever synth I want to record, and I'm instantly ready to go. I also have a couple of additional input and output channels from my interface going to a patchbay, just in case I want to use an effect loop or something. And I have lightpipe going to and from some Expert Sleepers modules to integrate my modular. But mostly I'm just using the one set of MIDI and audio cables, so the configuration never changes, no matter what synth I'm recording.

[DodgingRain]

What's difficult about hardware and DAWs is the latency and the automation of the synths parameters. The midi and audio routing is a cakewalk, just have to have charts for the interfaces and patch bays. Wish I had enough interface in/out to not have to do the patch bay thing but everytime I end up with enough interface I/O I buy more synths and then don't have enough.

[mcnoone]

Yea well, it's pretty clear now that the situation has actually gotten worse.
I have three daws and not one of them is getting audio.
Live 8 has no "external instument" plugin or whatever it is that was mentioned. I guess I could update my Live Lite 8 version to 9, then I can use that new external audio tool or whatever you call it.
Version 8 doesn't have it. Logic 8 had audio led movement, and midi notes recording, but absolutely no audio. Live8 had led audio showing on a midi track, but no audio.
Garageband, had absolutely no response at all.
Note that last month I had each one giving some audio in one form or other. This past week, I can't get anything.

Something unusual is happening though.
Even though I have the headphones hooked up. The click track is sounding through the macbook pro's speakers. I would think it should play through the headphones.

Somethings changed in the audio/midi setup, but I can't figure out what or why, things aren't working at all now. Maybe it's in the synths setup. But that has an auto midi setup feature which I have enabled. The mac os audio/midi setup seems like the same settings I had last month when I recorded audio in garageband with it. No outboard synths can do midi notes in garageband though. It's audio only for that daw.

Wonder if I can bring my setup to a music store and pay them to set it up correctly.
Something is definitely not set right though. And that something was right just last month when I could at least get audio in Garageband, and had some audio and midi going in Live8.

I'm really ready to throw this thing through a window though.
I have as much patience for this as I do driving on the long island expressway.
I've owned this synth since last april, and while the sounds I made for it leave me satisfied. The integration into a computer daw, has been like what one would think hell to be like.

[mcnoone]

Back in the day, I used to run a bunch of synths live, just like everyone else. I had StudioVision controlling multiple Opcode interfaces with all my synths mapped and named, and the audio going into a 32 channel 8-bus main board and additional rack mounted 32 channel and 16 channel submixers. Yes, it was a huge pain.

Now I keep it simple. I have one long MIDI cable and two long audio cables which are always patched into my interface. I just plug them into whichever synth I want to record, and I'm instantly ready to go. I also have a couple of additional input and output channels from my interface going to a patchbay, just in case I want to use an effect loop or something. And I have lightpipe going to and from some Expert Sleepers modules to integrate my modular. But mostly I'm just using the one set of MIDI and audio cables, so the configuration never changes, no matter what synth I'm recording.

I have no choice but to keep it simple.
It's two audio cables running into the presonus audiobox, which then has a usb wire running into the computer. The microkorg xl+ has a usb going directly into the mac. That's it. I can't afford any other items really. I hope to make it work like you have it, where I don't need to change anything. If I could only first achieve the ideal setup that gives me audio and midi recording in Logic 8, I would keep it set for both internal and external synths.

[Jace-BeOS]

Check which sound device you're using in Logic audio preferences. It should be your Presonus Audiobox, not the built-in sound. Also check which audio device Mac OS X is using for input and output in the system preferences. I keep my music hardware as the default for that, too, rather than the internal (it regresses to the internal when my FireWire audio device is disconnected).

The Logic metronome should indeed be output via the same device as the rest of the playback in Logic, because the metronome in Logic is a synth routed to the mixer and main stereo output.

[Jace-BeOS]

Also: it's true that the Audio MIDI Setup tool isn't necessary, but can be useful. It can let you create an aggregate audio device from multiple audio devices (the internal and external audio devices could be aggregated into one, so check if you're doing that). The only other real use for Audio MIDI Setup is to provide actual names for connections used in Logic.