Best tape emulator?
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 1780 posts since 26 Aug, 2012
Especially for master and vocals.
Demoing Waves Kramer Master tape at the moment. Applied it to an edm track and it made it fatter and louder, dont know if it really emulated a tape though (wet, bouncy punch sound that tapes have), difficult to say really.
I remember trying the Reel Tape from Avid and that was about the closest thing Ive come upon, even had tape noise - pretty loud too, the Kramer noise is barely audible, the only thing is when you click 'buy' for the Avid one it takes you to a blank screen. Maybe discontinued??
Anyway..are there better ones out there that the Kramer one?
Their 'sale' ends today sometime so thats why Im askin'.
Demoing Waves Kramer Master tape at the moment. Applied it to an edm track and it made it fatter and louder, dont know if it really emulated a tape though (wet, bouncy punch sound that tapes have), difficult to say really.
I remember trying the Reel Tape from Avid and that was about the closest thing Ive come upon, even had tape noise - pretty loud too, the Kramer noise is barely audible, the only thing is when you click 'buy' for the Avid one it takes you to a blank screen. Maybe discontinued??
Anyway..are there better ones out there that the Kramer one?
Their 'sale' ends today sometime so thats why Im askin'.
Last edited by Kinh on Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
- KVRAF
- 23077 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
IMHO, u-he Satin.
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- Banned
- 22457 posts since 5 Sep, 2001
for EDM Kinh, probably Satin. Just be aware that if you do parallel processing you *can't* put satin in the parallel chain (basically no where where you have 2 identical tracks in parallel), because it will cause phase problems. You *can* put kramer and VTM on parallel chains, but they have latency (especially VTM, like 40ms). Satin doesn't have any noticeable latency so you can even monitor through it.
For me now i ditched all native tape plugin bar kramer (cause it's low latency and works with pdc perfectly), and am sticking mainly with the studer and ampex of UAD. I track some of my outboard gear with the studer too. Can really add some magic to the virus ti for example.
The other ones that many people rave about are some of the nebula ones.
Personally i don't mind Kramer at all on certain SOLO, individual sounds. I had this guitar last night, that had a really nice melody, and just one of the notes peaked like 6+ db over the others. Because it was in a solo section of the song, it needed to be tamed as it was really obnoxious/obvious. I tried about 10 compressor plugins and they were useless, except for vertigo which sounded fantastic, but i ended up just putting the *mildest* touch of kramer on it instead and it just took away that harshness and huge spike. I had it at15 ips and driving very subtle.
There are some other excellent plugins you can use that aren't necessarily tape. For example you could use radiator or studio devil pre amp (which i think is outstanding) on a channel by channel basis.
For me now i ditched all native tape plugin bar kramer (cause it's low latency and works with pdc perfectly), and am sticking mainly with the studer and ampex of UAD. I track some of my outboard gear with the studer too. Can really add some magic to the virus ti for example.
The other ones that many people rave about are some of the nebula ones.
Personally i don't mind Kramer at all on certain SOLO, individual sounds. I had this guitar last night, that had a really nice melody, and just one of the notes peaked like 6+ db over the others. Because it was in a solo section of the song, it needed to be tamed as it was really obnoxious/obvious. I tried about 10 compressor plugins and they were useless, except for vertigo which sounded fantastic, but i ended up just putting the *mildest* touch of kramer on it instead and it just took away that harshness and huge spike. I had it at15 ips and driving very subtle.
There are some other excellent plugins you can use that aren't necessarily tape. For example you could use radiator or studio devil pre amp (which i think is outstanding) on a channel by channel basis.
- u-he
- 28042 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
You can't mix a dry signal with a signal recorded on an analogue tape machine in parallel without phaseing. It's a property of tape to be "not zero phase". It's the laws of physics.TheoM wrote:Just be aware that if you do parallel processing you *can't* put satin in the parallel chain (basically no where where you have 2 identical tracks in parallel), because it will cause phase problems.
Please file a bug report with Waves, they evidently got their tape model wrong then. If it doesn't phase, it simply ain't tape.You *can* put kramer and VTM on parallel chains
Oh yes, indeed, I'm biased here. But I'm not the aggressor, I'm the victim. I just point out false advertisement for the very reason that our evidently more accurate model is perceived as somewhat inferior to an algorithm that says "tape" but only has "whatever" in it.
That said, I'm sure it's a great effect and it may be very useful for many people. But it simply isn't what it says.
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 1780 posts since 26 Aug, 2012
Why do you say better for EDM especially? Because it smooths harshness better?TheoM wrote:for EDM Kinh, probably Satin.
Also, does it have that 'real' tape sound with hiss noise?
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- Banned
- Topic Starter
- 1780 posts since 26 Aug, 2012
I kinda know what you mean. It somehow doesn't quite sound like tape. I cant put my finger on why or how. You know with tape you get that dampness, that elasticity like everything's bouncing back at you as opposed to coming directly. Hard to put into words but its like a train riding on old wooden sleepers instead of concrete.Urs wrote: Oh yes, indeed, I'm biased here. But I'm not the aggressor, I'm the victim. I just point out false advertisement for the very reason that our evidently more accurate model is perceived as somewhat inferior to an algorithm that says "tape" but only has "whatever" in it.
That said, I'm sure it's a great effect and it may be very useful for many people. But it simply isn't what it says.
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- KVRian
- 1113 posts since 2 Oct, 2001 from Berlin, Germany
Just in case if anyone's interested in the old discussion about bias, THD and freq response:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2#p5527632 (and the following page, very 'fruitful' but, alas, unresponded by Waves)
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5530015 ('u-he's tape-plugin test file suite (used during Satin dev, originally)')
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2#p5527632 (and the following page, very 'fruitful' but, alas, unresponded by Waves)
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5530015 ('u-he's tape-plugin test file suite (used during Satin dev, originally)')
Sascha Eversmeier
drummer of The Board
software dev in the studio-speaker biz | former plugin creator [u-he, samplitude & digitalfishphones]
drummer of The Board
software dev in the studio-speaker biz | former plugin creator [u-he, samplitude & digitalfishphones]
- KVRAF
- 5796 posts since 17 Aug, 2004 from Berlin, Germany
Slate VTM is the best for native versions (not including the UAD)
The Kramer Master Tape is not bad but VTM remembers me more to a real tape.
The Kramer Master Tape is not bad but VTM remembers me more to a real tape.
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- KVRian
- 513 posts since 22 May, 2009 from Portugal,Azores (faial island)
Ahh ,i remember that postsascha wrote:Just in case if anyone's interested in the old discussion about bias, THD and freq response:
<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 7632</span> (and the following page, very 'fruitful' but, alas, unresponded by Waves)
<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 0015</span> ('u-he's tape-plugin test file suite (used during Satin dev, originally)')
your test tones are very useful,i still use them from time to time.
one of the thing's i found very tedious was to find the compression transfer curve at various frequencies,i would have to measure a sine wave input against the output at different db levels,than i would write those numbers on excel that process took a long time lol.
talking about tape,and what i look for in a tape simulation:
The frequency response must be level dependent;
incresiasing the bias must reduce the harmonic distortion but also reduces the high frequency;
lower frequencies have more harmonic distortion (amplitude) third/odd harmonic distortion due to transformers;
head bump/frequency response higher at 30 ips lower at 15 ips;
wow and flutter must be present,also generates sidebands;
tape hiss and asperity noise;
frequency dependent phase;
frequency dependent compression;
crosstalk;
tape formula , tape aging;
erasure of transients (level dependent);
Pre-emphasis;
Record / reproduction equalization;
hiss is one of the first things our brain tries to find in a analog recording since we all remember the sound of vintage records,i believe that the final link that we don't see today is a study of the effects of tape aging ,i would love to find a recording of white noise and sine wave over 40/50 years ago to see the effects on the frequency and harmonic distortion.
...want to know how to program great synth sounds,check my video tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/user/sergiofrias25
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- KVRAF
- 8414 posts since 4 Jul, 2012 from Alesia
Satin gets my vote.
However for EDM, you would be much better off buying something like Fabfilter Saturn instead. It gives you way more flavors and the multi-band design will do wonders for your war to be the loudest.
However for EDM, you would be much better off buying something like Fabfilter Saturn instead. It gives you way more flavors and the multi-band design will do wonders for your war to be the loudest.
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transmetropolitan transmetropolitan https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=342194
- KVRist
- 282 posts since 24 Nov, 2014
+1EvilDragon wrote:IMHO, u-he Satin.
Satin rocks.
- KVRAF
- 5796 posts since 17 Aug, 2004 from Berlin, Germany
Satin is for me more a tape saturation toolbox it can be used to simulate different tapes/machines but it's not the same as a dedicated emulation of X or Y like VTM.
I use VTM to 95% in all my productions, Satin more as tape delay.
In some blind tests on Gearslutz most people prefer VTM and finding it sounds more 3D. Satin sounds for some users flat and some others thinking it was the original.
ReelBus is another tape plugin which people like a lot (behind VTM), so I would give it a try. It's not expensive (20€) http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-reelbus/
I use VTM to 95% in all my productions, Satin more as tape delay.
In some blind tests on Gearslutz most people prefer VTM and finding it sounds more 3D. Satin sounds for some users flat and some others thinking it was the original.
ReelBus is another tape plugin which people like a lot (behind VTM), so I would give it a try. It's not expensive (20€) http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-reelbus/
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- KVRian
- 702 posts since 19 Mar, 2014 from Denver, CO
VTM blows Kramer away to my ears. Not that I know what it should sound like, but I much prefer VTM's sound to Kramer's when I want some subtle enhancements.
- KVRAF
- 14942 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
I personally like Virsyn's VTAPE the best. Sounds great and when you really push it I think it tends to still sound really natural and "tape like." Other tape emulations tend to kind of fail at extremes, IMO.
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
- KVRAF
- 3166 posts since 31 Dec, 2004 from People's Republic of Minnesota
Yes, I'd say VTM sounds more like what I heard when I used to use analog tape in school. The saturation is really convincing. Sad to say that. I really want Satin to be better then VTM realistic-wise as I dislike slate's BS marketing.