Why not 100% overwritable presets in synths - like organs have?

[lfm]

@lfm
The KK has actually good reviews. The minor point is: its keybed is weak. That's why it dropped in price significantly since its introduction.

Thanks, good to hear.

I did not get the specifics only that it was not all well received - one of the youtube reviews as I recall.
One review (this japaneze guy) he mysteriously jumped piano sound, saying "we want synths, right" etc. Which doesn't bother me, having piano separately, but would bother someone wanting stagepiano etc - lowering grade. Organ I also have - so the bank for piano and organ could have been nice having writeable - a little bit why this thread came about.

SOS KK review only remark was about price £1200 they felt a bit steep. But current prices seems like a bargain €811 incl. swedish 25% VAT.

Looked at Kross/Krome/M50 - but KK seems more up my alley, more fun to edit.

[thecontrolcentre]

I own a Nord Micro modular, Novation Bass Station Rack and Studio Electronics ATC-1, all of which you can overwrite the presets.

[Jace-BeOS]

My second-hand Yamaha TX802 came to me missing its factory "Performance" patches. All it had were the the basic "Voice" presets (and I think they were also messed up(?)). I had no idea what the thing was capable of doing. By the time I acquired a sysex file to restore the Performances, I lost interest in the arcane device. Programming FM synthesis isn't my strong suit and, despite a relatively good number of controls on the unit, the editing isn't exactly easy (I never used an original DX7, so I can't compare how much an improvement the TX802's front panel is).

Many synth buyers are preset players. Presets usually sell the machines. That's why presets are swamped in FX (once FX became cheap enough to include in all synths) to showcase each individual sound, despite them ultimately not fitting into mixes. It is indeed annoying to waste user patch slots on "effects reduced" duplications of factory presets, just to compensate for the heavy FX.

Editable non-voletile memory historically costs more than static ROM. When the trends were established, editable RAM was in short supply in these machines because of expense (in fact, I bet almost nobody used it, instead using battery-backed RAM, a further complication to the architecture), and I imagine it was felt that synth programmers were secondary to preset players (synths with instant presets were a hot new thing, once).

Many synths on the used market have had battery failures, wiping out the user banks. Imagine if they also wiped out the factory presets too. I'm not saying that synth makers considered second-hand markets when architecting these synths, but it became relevant after the fact.

Now that flash memory is relatively cheap, some synth makers just use one flat storage space, leaving everything available to be overwritten if the user cares to. However, designing synths in a certain way might've become somewhat a "habit". A few banks of read-only factory presets to show off the machine at sale time, and for instant use by preset users, and a bank of user spaces for people that wish to do editing. Doing it this way is still very well aligned with selling preset machines to preset players, while still leaving opportunities for synth-editing people. And, as Whyterabbyt said, there's no risk of users complaining about "useless" synths on Internet reviews/forums, because the factory presets are safe from users or battery failure wiping them out.

Interestingly, some older devices with socketed patch chips left room for 3rd party modification. I bought an EEPROM to replace my TransTubeFex's formerly battery-backed patch memory, eliminating the battery. I also found that my second-hand Yamaha VL70-m came with a 3rd party patch ROM that was a major improvement over Yamaha's original factory patches.

[shadowdancerbnr]

@lfm

I had to sell my Rack 2X and have missed it ever since, but they've come down massively in price over the last couple of years. Although.....you're talking about the NL2X....I guess they've kept their value, which is surprising, considering Nord's more recent, more capable (on paper, at least) synths.

As for the KK.. I've only tried it briefly, and thought it sounded nice, but the interface I found completely horrible. Nothing seemed logically laid out among all the menu-diving, which is just weird when you consider how much space is wasted on its fascia. The general cheap, plastic feel of it is also hugely off-putting. Even the one I played in the shop looked filthy, scratched and worn.

[lfm]

And, as Whyterabbyt said, there's no risk of users complaining about "useless" synths on Internet reviews/forums, because the factory presets are safe from users or battery failure wiping them out.

Interesting read, thank you.

But wonder if the CX-3 as example is not just having the banks selectable in static RAM, and still have those presets ROM:ed as well, to copy to banks into static RAM as needed.

I think it was Hammond that have a checksum of static RAM, and if altered at power up - factory presets are written in again. But first you get battery low warning for a while.

Hold some buttons, and power on - and the full instrument is reset to factory default - all banks restored.

Not sure, but wonder if foolproofing users is why you get ROM:et presets.

Maybe they are just thinking the amount of user locations are enough, not thinking so much about the creative process of doing your own presets. At least for me, working my way it takes 50 locations to do 5 keeper presets or so. Then you obviously can reuse those 45 locations to the next bunch.

It would be interesting if there are hacks of firmware or non-documented operations to make all locations writeable. I looked in service manual to my Yamaha piano - and there are numerous odd keyboard combinations at powerup - to set unit in various service modes. F#3-chord and I don't know what else.

There might be some operation making flashed ROM writeable for storing your presets, one never knows.

[mztk]

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[lfm]

@lfm

I had to sell my Rack 2X and have missed it ever since, but they've come down massively in price over the last couple of years. Although.....you're talking about the NL2X....I guess they've kept their value, which is surprising, considering Nord's more recent, more capable (on paper, at least) synths.

As for the KK.. I've only tried it briefly, and thought it sounded nice, but the interface I found completely horrible. Nothing seemed logically laid out among all the menu-diving, which is just weird when you consider how much space is wasted on its fascia. The general cheap, plastic feel of it is also hugely off-putting. Even the one I played in the shop looked filthy, scratched and worn.

Thanks.
I looked at Nord Rack 2x as well, they are about $500 used as of recently in sweden. I made a lower offer but did not get it. Out of convenience, just having one unit on my lap - one with keyboard is nice.

I don't like the look of KK panel, that beige kind of color - looks horrific. I saw a youtube video where a Korg guy demoed as well, and they mentioned deeper menues and stuff.

Having buttons for everything - then we look at the really nice demo posted for the Alesis Andromeda(in another thread about VCF+VCA's) - that was pretty much nuclear powerplant kind of panel, and they are now $4000 or so in price. But the sound of that unit is to die for.

So there are tradeoffs, I guess. I will probably order KK on monday and see for myself at the end of the week.

[Hank the Knife]

The value of things is determined by the fool's praise. That's how the system works. Speaking of fools, I am considering to buy a Korg Kross 61 (€650)

[Jim Y]

Depends on the tech in the box. A decade ago, manufacturers were terrified of memory costs - particularly of ram & flash.ROM was dirt cheap though, so you have a little "working RAM" and load active voice data from a preset in ROM into it. You might be able to edit the voices held in the RAM, but can't save your changes - unless there also some flash or battery backed ram, but that goes in the "user" banks. That "working RAM" would be small - a few kB.
Then there's the General MIDI banks - those sound sets were supposed to be set in stone so everybody can sound like a Donald Fagin CD no matter who made the synth at any place or time. No you can't over-write them.
Nowadays there's no excuse with cheap flash memory, and as said a factory restore can be done from voice data held in ROM or over sysex from a file.
What I can't forgive is "Why the F*** can't it be switched on with the same settings active as when I switched the damn thing off!"
Now my Nord Electro behaves well in this regard. It just constantly saves edits in a non-volatile memory and restores them on power-up.

[lfm]

For those interested, I found that KingKorg can write to all 300 locations and overwrite any factory presets. So all is good regarding this unit for me, and ordered one.

Oen thing to look out for, is that any recall of factory settings will overwrite first 200 locations again with default, but leave user area 201-300 untouched.

Same with the libraries provided for free that I saw, will also do the same, overwrite some or all user as well as factory default locations.

Seems like a mistake by Korg. not letting you exclude parts. Librarian software should probably be used to load kklib files, and write single programs that you like instead.

Anyway, will be great fun exploring KK!

[BertKoor]

Good to know a factory reset will erase these patches. So first back them up!

One observation though: it's good you finally placed an order, but I feared you'd never get to that because of all your other threads about certain features. Synths are a bit like cars (or wife) : none of them are perfect. And the most annoying limitations in their usage you find only after a certain time. So you have to settle for a compromise and despite design flaws you will fall in love with whatever model you picked.

[lfm]

One observation though: it's good you finally placed an order, but I feared you'd never get to that because of all your other threads about certain features.

You are right about that.
I swayed back and forth and almost went for a Nord Lead 3 this week.

Even though Nord are really nice to work with, if find stunning value in KK, if it was €649+VAT(whatever in your country).

Looked at Kross as well, but focus is little more on sequencing which I never use. Looked at M50 and Krome with a larger display, but also not focused on physical knobs - all in menues and more sequencing.

Now I'm ready for dark winter days coming.

[EvilDragon]

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[lfm]

For example it is possible in those synths i currently own:
Waldorf Blofeld (8 x 128 = 1024 patches), Waldorf Pulse 2 (500 patches), Waldorf Streichfett (3 x 4 = 12 patches), Novation UltraNova (4 x 128 = 512 patches)

Special thanks for the Waldorf Blofeld suggestion - what a synth module for no bucks almost. Listening on youtube all day. I just had to get one of those too - now Santa closed the shop.