Diva vs Analogue - a real world test

[ImNotDedYet]

I think FM gets a bit of a raw deal because of the difficulty a lot of people have with it. Given a capable enough engine it'll generate interesting textures, especially once you break away from the confines of sine waves and crippled hardware interfaces. Makes me wonder what they'd have said if the DX7 was given a knobby interface, easy per-voice detune, and a Juno chorus

I bought a Juno 1 right when they came out, they advertised the "alpha dial" as the newest, easiest way to program a synth, of course it was a major bummer compared to the 106. I do think if the DX7 had knobs we all would have a different perception of FM. All synthesizers got harder to program when they started to abandon knobs.

Can you imagine the mess though - with six operators, a knob for the waveform, which isn't like a subtractive where you go from saw to sin to square, etc. feedback, amount, etc. And that's just for the operators...then you have to tack on envelopes for each, knobs for the filter, effects. (I'm thinking in terms of my TG77) That's a hellish amount of knobs to keep track of - and the cost of all those pots...

But FM does get a bum rap. You can do so much with FM once you start really getting into it.

[braj]

Well, that's it really, cost is what made analog synthesizers get rid of knobs, is what made the DX7 also not include them, not because it was superior. At least leaving some knobs and sliders for some things like envelopes would be preferable. Imagine using an FM plugin with only a little text display and a slider. It was never ideal.

[trimph1]

I don't understand why Mutant is laughing after that post. Is he implying it proves some point of his or does he just like the idea of people being fooled? I'm confused.

He is just pointing out he is still...

Winning on the internet....

[PAK]

remember in this context, and for sure the context that it was introduced into the world, it was called "cold" because of the sound of the DACs compared to the competition

Hmm, I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Though it makes me curious what you'd make of something like this, which is a DX7 sampled to 8 bit for a computer game. https://goo.gl/YV5La4 Can't get much more typical DX sounds than those. Or this https://goo.gl/WU515l and whether you'd still call it (recreation of an Oberheim Prince track done by Replay Heaven) warm when the bit reduction kicks in?

which at the time was an analog what? Juno 106? AX80?

Generation before those even. Some think the Jupiter 6 was Roland's attempted response to the "FM sound".

I'm not saying FM can't produce "warm" sounds, I'm just saying that it's unique (then) characteristics got the focus of people's descriptions.

I know you're not, and FM's sound differences were used as a selling point. But, along with sample based synths, the DX series helped put analogue synths out of production! The greater sense was that more people thought they didn't need analogue any more. It could make these new sounds, but also cover the old ones well enough. People started selling off their old synths, usually at huge financial loss.

Even though certain notions about differences existed then too (like FM was better for "cold" sounds) there was a lot less putting things in their own little box. We might ask now "What was everyone thinking?!", but it was an overall healthier attitude towards technology than being told things like why a 106 absolutely cannot replace a 60 etc.

But it's all a continum and it would help to put a term like "warm" in a context when using it. For instance, "I was looking at the DX7, but I bought the AX80 instead because it sounded warmer. I wish I could buy a CS80 because that's even warmer!" I think you'd be hard pressed to find a musican that wouldn't understand that statement.

You'd also be hard pressed to find a musician who's been within miles of one, given how many were made. Most peoples opinions of the CS80 were, and still are, based on it being the "Vangelis synth". Much like the "friend of a friend says" thing, there's more than a bit of folklore attached, and some might be disappointed unless you also included Vangelis and a Lexicon 224 in the package

[Mutant]

I don't understand why Mutant is laughing after that post. Is he implying it proves some point of his or does he just like the idea of people being fooled? I'm confused.

He is just pointing out he is still...

Winning on the internet....

Silly things make people laugh.
Unscientific, badly designed "experiments" are silly.

[SWAN808]

sorry to wake the beast....however I thought it was interesting that the test and preset pack were featured on Sonic State - where 63% of people said the nailed the test! However - that was of course after the results were available....

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2015/09/ ... -the-test/

[Robmobius]

sorry to wake the beast....however I thought it was interesting that the test and preset pack were featured on Sonic State - where 63% of people said the nailed the test! However - that was of course after the results were available....

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2015/09/ ... -the-test/

Either way Diva is still a beast and performs admirably, and it'a lot cheaper then a real Oberheim.

By the way those presets are class.

[SWAN808]

sorry to wake the beast....however I thought it was interesting that the test and preset pack were featured on Sonic State - where 63% of people said the nailed the test! However - that was of course after the results were available....

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2015/09/ ... -the-test/

Either way Diva is still a beast and performs admirably, and it'a lot cheaper then a real Oberheim.

By the way those presets are class.

thanks mate yes Diva is a fair bit cheaper and you don't need to import it in either...downloading it is easier

[PatchAdamz]

sorry to wake the beast....however I thought it was interesting that the test and preset pack were featured on Sonic State - where 63% of people said the nailed the test! However - that was of course after the results were available....

http://www.sonicstate.com/news/2015/09/ ... -the-test/

Either way Diva is still a beast and performs admirably, and it'a lot cheaper then a real Oberheim.

By the way those presets are class.

thanks mate yes Diva is a fair bit cheaper and you don't need to import it in either...downloading it is easier

Plus the oscillators will always stay in tune.

[deastman]

Can you imagine the mess though - with six operators, a knob for the waveform, which isn't like a subtractive where you go from saw to sin to square, etc. feedback, amount, etc. And that's just for the operators...then you have to tack on envelopes for each, knobs for the filter, effects. (I'm thinking in terms of my TG77) That's a hellish amount of knobs to keep track of - and the cost of all those pots...

But FM does get a bum rap. You can do so much with FM once you start really getting into it.

Something like this?

[braj]

Can you imagine the mess though - with six operators, a knob for the waveform, which isn't like a subtractive where you go from saw to sin to square, etc. feedback, amount, etc. And that's just for the operators...then you have to tack on envelopes for each, knobs for the filter, effects. (I'm thinking in terms of my TG77) That's a hellish amount of knobs to keep track of - and the cost of all those pots...

But FM does get a bum rap. You can do so much with FM once you start really getting into it.

Something like this?

That's a wonderful amount of knobs.

[JoeCat]

OT but concerning the DX7:

I was a keyboardist in the 80s (and if we'd predicted the internet we'd never have let anyone take pics). I gigged with a DX7, Oberheim Matrix 6, and a sampled piano module (don't recall which).

I don't think many of us thought of the DX in terms of the coldness of FM, etc. First and foremost, it was a fantastic piece of equipment for gigging musicians - built like a tank and with a fabulously playable keybed.

For studios - it was relatively cheap, always in tune, reliable, and most importantly, could do a fair job replicating a clavinet, organ, electric piano, etc. (most studios weren't producing Madonna - they were recording the band up the block, some commercial bits for the local car dealer etc.).

Thing about the DX was its ability to reproduce, if not the exact sound, the articulation and responsiveness of traditional instruments (and in a way samplers, which still felt like Mellotrons whereby you "hit a key and triggered a recording", for years would not). No one needed a marimba - we just loved playing it.. The harmonica, flute, etc. - if you mimicked the articulations and voicing of these instruments they opened up a new world.

But no one was playing "Jump" or doing ELP covers with it (well, maybe "Jump" in a wedding band). Comparing it to analog would be like comparing your Miata to your F150. They both have 4 wheels and you can drive them, but you wouldn't replace one with the other.

It WAS a bear to program - you really had to know what you were after first, or you ended up with the dreaded 20-plus bell patches because it was really time-consuming to experiment with. I think the four-knob (or slider) approach with menus (a-la Blofeld, etc.) would have gone a long way to alleviating that without a great deal of added cost.

Same with the Matrix 6 of course, though with a subtractive most people still had a pretty clear idea of what to tweak in a sound to get closer to your goal. I love the brave new world of knobs on my Launchkey mapped to Diva filters and envelopes!

[Mutant]

OK so the thread got bumped today, so just for laughs i decided to play with Xhip and Diva again and copy the "trianglegate" preset analoguesamples909 provided earlier in this thread for free.

As always, not to prove that one synth is better than the other, not to create a test for bat-eared synth freaks to test their "nerd level" senses, not to get a 100% exact copy, just for fun and as a challenge to myself and out of curiosity if it is possible to make Xhip sound similar.

First a picture from early stages of copying the preset, 1 oscillator only.

Xhip is seablue on the scope and green on the analyzer, Diva is purple and red.
Interesting how close they are, almost looks like same numbers crunched by same algorithms (i know they aren't, because they don't cancel each other to -inf dB).

Xhip has only 2 oscillators so i had to use 2 instances and the trangle oscillator on Diva is not 100% triangle, it has some saw too, so i used 2 oscillators on the 2nd Xhip to emulate it.
Xhip achieves stereo in some other ways that involves too much randomness for our purpose (was hard to make the loudness equal with every next note having a different random pan), so i made 1 and only adjustment to the preset on Diva, i turned all 8 pan knobs below trimmers / voice map modulator to 0.
Used a small amount of random pitch in Xhip unison settings to emulate Divas oscillator voice detune.
Used my ears and my eyes.
Voxengo Span, Dust Analyzer, Signal Analyzer.
I tried to make them equally loud, but if they aren't you can always use your pan control to fix it, they are 2 mono files combined into stereo.

Here is how it sounds, Xhip on the left, Diva on the right:
https://app.box.com/s/grnssyi4dvbartsei7auri18ouacp362

My Xhip version is customized to exponential envelope shape, and Divas envelopes are way more linear, so it was impossible to get it closer without using another Xhip version with linear envelopes, but i made sure that attack times were same.
And if i wanted to spend a lot more time on it, i could get it few % closer to 100%, but it is not worth the time for me to try to perfectly emulate something with something else especially when that something else wasn't even an emulation of that something.
Haha that sentence was a bit complicated...

[braj]

That is an interesting picture of two synths

[Mutant]

That is an interesting picture of two synths

Huehue.

Now with fresh ears i noticed that there is a tiny bit too much resonance in Xhip side, well... not like it can't be fixed easily.