Need some tips/ideas to make full songs.

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My issue is quite basic "I can make a kickass 8 bar loop but can't finish a song". Okay not quite that since I've done as work around that I just copy an arrangement from some other song. Listen carefully "ah here's that kind of fx" and "ah here's a sweep" etc etc.. Well it hasn't got me anywhere. Makes fun into a work.. That doesn't pay money :D

So I'm interested to know that what YOU use to complete/finish your song? How do you do it? How did you get there how you do it today?

I know the basic theory around it but can't really say I'd be able to do it properly.

Someone said long time ago that "transitions transitions transitions. Even small ones but transitions".

Yea.. And practice :D

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I think the key might be to listen, listen and listen - to music that you like and find out why you like it.

From your description I can sense that you see songs as a mechanical process, rather than a musical process.
Copy arrangements from one song to another is one such mechanical thing.

Things I found out what really made me listen over and over on an album from an artist - is that every song has it's own signature, kind of. A good producer really give something unique to every song.

Every good song worth listening to more than once also has some drama built in - things come and go. A beat is just as much about the pauses as the hits and so is drama.

You talk about a kickass 8 bar loop - well, build a melody in there that can hook you and real you in, kind of.
8 bar loop sound more like a foundation that carries something musical.

Substantial things come from an idea in your head first. One way to get ideas is to play along with something like a beat, or just play it in your head if you don't play an instrument. Ideas of phrases will be lost unless you repeat long enough and finalize them or just have a dictaphone within armslength distance to capture it. Just record the phrases that come up - and if you listen to them later and sense there is something musical in there, work on it more.

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What you're describing is a very, very common problem. I've been there plenty of times myself. You start with a synth or a drum kit and lay down 8 bars. Then you go and add a bassline. Maybe a pad? How about an arp? Wow, this is sounding great! And you've created an entire mini-song which is only 8 bars long and you can listen to it loop endlessly. Turning that into an actual song sounds like work and not fun at all. Maybe you'll just save that project and do the arranging another day. Then another day comes, and it sounds like a whole lot more fun to just start the process over again rather than to work on arranging those bits you've already recorded.

So here's my recommendation:
Right from the very first note, you need to be building out the skeleton of a full song arrangement. If you start with a drum beat, make several versions of it which extend down the timeline. Maybe have one version for 16 or 32 bars and call that the verse. Then follow it up with another version which is the chorus. Next add a beat for a bridge, other section, or right back to the next verse with a slightly modified version of the beat from verse 1. After you have all of those sections laid out end to end, go back and work on a pad or an arp or a bassline. But whatever you do, do not move on to a different instrument until you have added something to each and every section of the song.

Another alternate approach to this is to work out the entire song's chord progression right at the beginning with just a piano, guitar, or some very basic and boring synth sound. Record in the chords for the intro, verse 1, chorus, bridge, verse 2, etc. Get them all laid out in the timeline. Then add a bassline to the entire song. Choose a pad or lead or something which will fit one of the sections, and add it to every instance of that section. Eventually you'll have enough built up that you can eliminate the original scratch chord track.

The point of this approach is to deal with the tedious process of arranging a song structure right from the beginning, while also postponing the fun spontaneity of coming up with new sounds and parts until after there is already a structure in place.

To use an analogy, a painter who is painting a forest scene does not paint a single tree in extraordinary detail before turning his attention to the remainder of the blank canvas. Everything is roughed in to the same level of detail, and progressive refinement happens throughout the image in multiple passes.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

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Perfectly said deastman. Best advice I've seen on this subject.

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Those were great bits of advise.

Are you doing a song in verse-chorus-verse structure? planning lyrics? I do, so here are things I sometimes do when I'm stuck with a piece that goes nowhere:

Make that piece into a 3 or so minute long song and then cut bits out.

Ie:

• Pick a piece that serves as an intro, mostly by itself.

• Bring the other parts in after a few measures.

• Pick a section of time to be the chorus, cut the core elements, replace them with different pieces using different sounds.

Try to merge two false starts into one (one track as a verse and one as a chorus).Experiment with extreme disparity between sections. Then, introduce parts of one song into the other as a way to bridge them. A few select notes or sounds, for example.

The biggest problem I find is the need to CHANGE the thing at all, beyond the established loop or segment you got to the point of "now what" with. The more brutal you are in making a change, the more likely you are to find something that moves you to the next step, even if you don't keep the first few experiments.

Listen to music with lots of changes in individual songs to get exposure to how other people introduce change in their songs.

Unless you're doing dance stuff. I have no idea what the goals are there because it's not my area.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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lfm wrote:From your description I can sense that you see songs as a mechanical process, rather than a musical process.
Copy arrangements from one song to another is one such mechanical thing.
Well.. Something like that when I'm trying to build one :D It's just not fun. Though I know that it's because I really don't know what to do. I've considered that I'd go to a musician school but it costs a fortune so.. :P

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Great! I've read the first one long time a go but Transitions -one was new. Thanks :tu:
Last edited by Lejurai on Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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@ Lejurai: Same problem here... actually i decided to remix some stuff now, because it will probably massively help me to figure out how a track is built up, which elements are used, how the sounds fit together, stuff like that. When i learned to play guitar, obviously, i also started by playing other bands riffs, not by immediately creating my own, so it's the same situation.

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deastman wrote:What you're describing is a very, very common problem. I've been there plenty of times myself. You start with a synth or a drum kit and lay down 8 bars. Then you go and add a bassline. Maybe a pad? How about an arp? Wow, this is sounding great! And you've created an entire mini-song which is only 8 bars long and you can listen to it loop endlessly. Turning that into an actual song sounds like work and not fun at all. Maybe you'll just save that project and do the arranging another day. Then another day comes, and it sounds like a whole lot more fun to just start the process over again rather than to work on arranging those bits you've already recorded.
That's me. I have a graveyard of forgotten songs and broken dreams on my documents folder :D
deastman wrote:So here's my recommendation:
Right from the very first note, you need to be building out the skeleton of a full song arrangement. If you start with a drum beat, make several versions of it which extend down the timeline. Maybe have one version for 16 or 32 bars and call that the verse. Then follow it up with another version which is the chorus. Next add a beat for a bridge, other section, or right back to the next verse with a slightly modified version of the beat from verse 1. After you have all of those sections laid out end to end, go back and work on a pad or an arp or a bassline. But whatever you do, do not move on to a different instrument until you have added something to each and every section of the song.

Another alternate approach to this is to work out the entire song's chord progression right at the beginning with just a piano, guitar, or some very basic and boring synth sound. Record in the chords for the intro, verse 1, chorus, bridge, verse 2, etc. Get them all laid out in the timeline. Then add a bassline to the entire song. Choose a pad or lead or something which will fit one of the sections, and add it to every instance of that section. Eventually you'll have enough built up that you can eliminate the original scratch chord track.

The point of this approach is to deal with the tedious process of arranging a song structure right from the beginning, while also postponing the fun spontaneity of coming up with new sounds and parts until after there is already a structure in place.

To use an analogy, a painter who is painting a forest scene does not paint a single tree in extraordinary detail before turning his attention to the remainder of the blank canvas. Everything is roughed in to the same level of detail, and progressive refinement happens throughout the image in multiple passes.
That's.. Freaking.. Awesome.. I've never thought of doing it that way because my workflow practically always, is that I first make a sound and that sound then inspires the rest of the song and tells what category it is etc. and then I make a loop.

This is exactly what I was after. A totally new way of thinking :tu: Thank you :hug:

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Jace-BeOS wrote:Those were great bits of advise.

Are you doing a song in verse-chorus-verse structure? planning lyrics? I do, so here are things I sometimes do when I'm stuck with a piece that goes nowhere:

Make that piece into a 3 or so minute long song and then cut bits out.

Ie:

• Pick a piece that serves as an intro, mostly by itself.

• Bring the other parts in after a few measures.

• Pick a section of time to be the chorus, cut the core elements, replace them with different pieces using different sounds.

Try to merge two false starts into one (one track as a verse and one as a chorus).Experiment with extreme disparity between sections. Then, introduce parts of one song into the other as a way to bridge them. A few select notes or sounds, for example.

The biggest problem I find is the need to CHANGE the thing at all, beyond the established loop or segment you got to the point of "now what" with. The more brutal you are in making a change, the more likely you are to find something that moves you to the next step, even if you don't keep the first few experiments.

Listen to music with lots of changes in individual songs to get exposure to how other people introduce change in their songs.

Unless you're doing dance stuff. I have no idea what the goals are there because it's not my area.
Thanks for tips. I believe that genre doesn't matter as long as it works :D Some great dance(edm, trance what ever) songs have been made with structure of a heavymetal song ;)

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It takes some discipline to use this approach. I fall victim to the 8 bar loop all too often myself. It's an easy trap to slip into. Just keep trying, and keep the song structure in mind. You'll get there!
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.

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chk071 wrote:@ Lejurai: Same problem here... actually i decided to remix some stuff now, because it will probably massively help me to figure out how a track is built up, which elements are used, how the sounds fit together, stuff like that. When i learned to play guitar, obviously, i also started by playing other bands riffs, not by immediately creating my own, so it's the same situation.
Remixing. That's one artform I'd really like to learn. Seen some youtube vids about it and it just looks way too easy when people do it but crying out loud when I try to make one.. :cry:

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Please, don't say that... i thought i finally found a good starting point. :D

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deastman wrote:It takes some discipline to use this approach. I fall victim to the 8 bar loop all too often myself. It's an easy trap to slip into. Just keep trying, and keep the song structure in mind. You'll get there!
Actually I have a good feeling about this being THE WAY I should be making songs. It's because there's no difference for me is it 8,32 or 320 bar loop :D Method you told me allows me to have fun for the whole lenght of the piece. At the same time it eliminates my other issue.. Being too repetitive. It's really a mood killer when you have a great loop, then stop having fun with it (build a structure) and then try to figure out how to make some changes that don't destroy the whole loop.

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