Diva vs Analogue - a real world test

[Examigan]

Anyway, there are not many polyphonic analog synths out there less than $1000 (if any).

DSI tetra/used mopho sе, used oberheim matrix 6r, used juno 106, j3xp, jx8p, elektron a4, prava

used? Maybe in your place, but here where I live (and in many parts of the world) the used market is tiny and expensive for polyphonic analog synths.

So, list the new ones under $1000!

Here's one, it's a synth module, but most people here have a MIDI keyboard anyway.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Tetra

This one is 1 cent under your amount
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BlofeldKB

[EnGee]

Anyway, there are not many polyphonic analog synths out there less than $1000 (if any).

DSI tetra/used mopho sе, used oberheim matrix 6r, used juno 106, j3xp, jx8p, elektron a4, prava

used? Maybe in your place, but here where I live (and in many parts of the world) the used market is tiny and expensive for polyphonic analog synths.

So, list the new ones under $1000!

Here's one, it's a synth module, but most people here have a MIDI keyboard anyway.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Tetra

Ok, thanks! this is one! I also added one (Pulse 2) , so they are two. Anymore?
So, I'm not wrong, they are not many under $1000, although only Pulse 2 is under NZD $1000 here, and I can't find DSI Tetra!, but let's talk American (i.e. international)

This one is 1 cent under your amount
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BlofeldKB

It is under my fingers now as well
It doesn't count, as much as I love it, but no! it is not poly analog.

[beely]

Yes, but of course it doesn't get to 100% of what the real analog does.
A short example here:
https://app.box.com/s/3dfl6kelfwmqi5yz5gjo544ie0esk33f

Interesting - you're right in that it doesn't sound convincingly like the real thing, but the character is far more in the ballpark than the hard sync sounds on other synths I've come across..

Thanks for doing those audio clips.

[beely]

Sounds like a great idea. I've never had a Prodigy.

It might be a nice "weekend project" to investigate what gives it that character, and what distinguishes it from other more typical hard sync sounds.

The Prodigy is a fairly simple synth, but it is a generally good sounding one, but the oscillator sync gives it a way of generating different waveforms with different pitch wheel positions, as well as the screaming sync bends.

I've actually spent some hours with a Pro One the other day. Some monosynths have amazing potential that's often overlooked.

Yeah. The Pro One was exceptionally capable for it's size, and had a much more capable set of features - it seemed everyone was "modelling" it back in the day, and then it's been largely ignored in the later rounds of modelling. While it has some things in common with the Prophet 5, it's not just a P5 voice, it has it's own unique quirks enough to give it a unique character and range of sounds.

[david.beholder]

Yeah. The Pro One was exceptionally capable for it's size, and had a much more capable set of features - it seemed everyone was "modelling" it back in the day

According to demos PARVA is "modeling" P1 right this days.

[IncarnateX]

Found this link on gearslutz about the science and psychology behind the analog/digital debate.

Part 1
https://ask.audio/articles/analog-vs-di ... dio-part-1

Part 2
https://ask.audio/articles/analog-vs-di ... dio-part-2

It's pretty basic but may be of interest.

Cheers

[Urs]

Yeah. The Pro One was exceptionally capable for it's size, and had a much more capable set of features - it seemed everyone was "modelling" it back in the day

According to demos PARVA is "modeling" P1 right this days.

Hmmm, it uses a very different filter topology from the Pro One and I can't see information about crossmodulation routings. Does it do Laser Harp then?

Furthermore I'm not sure how many DACs they have and what samplerate it runs on, but 4 LFOs and 4 ADSRs are generated digitally and need to be buffered in sample & holds for 8 voices. I'd be surprised if the update rate is higher than 1 kHz. That IMHO is where all of the "analogue" synths with digital modulations fail. The zipper noise on the Jupiter 6 is one thing, it's almost forgiven, and on the Matrix 12 it's another. But it's even there on a modern Studio Electronics ATC-Xi - which is a monosynth. They should have less problems running fast updates. Sigh. That's an area where those synths can't even begin to touch software yet. I hope I'm wrong. It's about time the hardware guys get this right. I can't suffer any more facepalms when trying such a thing, they're not all cheap, you know

[bftucker]

Found this link on gearslutz about the science and psychology behind the analog/digital debate...

Cheers

We have wandered far afield but thanks. The articles were interesting.

Still, if you want something that sounds just like an XYZ then, by all means (if you have the means),buy an XYZ.

[david.beholder]

Furthermore I'm not sure how many DACs they have and what samplerate it runs on, but 4 LFOs and 4 ADSRs are generated digitally and need to be buffered in sample & holds for 8 voices. I'd be surprised if the update rate is higher than 1 kHz. That IMHO is where all of the "analogue" synths with digital modulations fail.

My aspiring HW engineer can't stop, but I gonna answer remaining letter later, it's working time still here in CA .

DAC+S/H Demux is classical way of doing things - i saw on P5 block diagrams, and it was only option in P5 days.
Today when DACs and CPUs are cheap and fast each voice card could have it's own CPU digitally conected to main CPU via fast bus.
Yes lot of 90ths synths like BS1, Pulse1 etc are in pain because of this 1khz, funny enough, but it looks like modern day P12 has aliasing oscs and update rate artifacts but their control speed is 10 times higher. But it looks like it's easy to work on 44.1 speeds with current cpu speeds.
It's not necessary to leave analog so early Voice have only few real destination points like VCF-F, VCF-R, VCA-A and most of the processing could happen in digital domain. Also Instead of proper DACs free PWM legs might be used. I saw schematics like PWM out -> RC cirquit -> Dest. CPU Pulse feeding DCO are old i think first it was on Synthax.

There are plenty of room for improvement but not sure how far we got by today.

By the way there was guy on GS with good knowledge of Synthax schematics. I just don't remember who. And you were asking about xmod on Synthax, right?

[IncarnateX]

Still, if you want something that sounds just like an XYZ then, by all means (if you have the means),buy an XYZ.

I can agree with that. Actually the article states a point that I believe is the true reason why digital emulations cannot beat the real thing even if people cannot tell the difference in a blind test:

true that digital is an approximation of the original signal, but this is not to say it isn't an excellent approximation, and this is where the supposition that digital is inherently inferior inserts itself on another, creative level—the concept that digital is merely imitating or copying a truer and more real or original phenomenon. These concepts of "copying", "approximation" and "real" and "original" are deeply seated Western social constructs of artistic integrity and intrinsic value, i.e., only something original is of value—a copy of something is, by its nature, inferior regardless of its own inherent quality, and digital is a rabbit caught in the headlights at this level.

Thus, as said in part one, given we know which is which the prefrontal cortex simply overrides whatever info in the sensory areas even if the information from the digital source initially is associated with more pleasure than the analog source.

To avoid this effect we have to reprogram our brains and that can be hard due to the influence of social and cultural factors.

[Urs]

Oh, the Synthex has analogue envelopes and stuff. I presume the LFO and glide that also acts as a small pitch envelope is digital because the DCOs are digital. The circuit schematics of the Synthex are hard to read. It's a matrix of chips.

I'm most bugged when envelopes are digital and when short release with closed lowpass filters times produce audible chirping noises. I don't expect that to be the case with the Synthex, but I haven't heard an analogue synth with digital envelopes not doing it, including the Prophet 6. Don't know about the Prophet 12 though, have stayed away from it due to reports of aliasing oscillators.

Interesting bit about higher sample rates on contemporary control circuits. I hope this development continues, a VCA envelope needs to run at an update rate of 40+ kHz in order to sound "right" for me. A lower rate with linear interpolation would be fine, but of course a 1 pole lowpass filter either does not interpolate linearly enough or is too slow, at least for the cases that I have heard - there's a mod for the Jupiter 6 using different capacitance at the S&Hs that eliminates the zipper noise, but it also makes the envelopes boringly slow. Again, I'd be happy to be wrong, maybe I should check some of those newer synths out.

(I guess I'm also just frustrated because I spent a few hours with the ATC yesterday and got a bit annoyed with short envelopes on otherwise gorgeous bass sounds)

[Urs]

And you were asking about xmod on Synthax, right?

I'm just impatient. My newly acquired Synthex should arrive in about two weeks or so. I'll see for myself, was just surprised when the emulation did something that should sound different according to the manual - it actually uses the sawtooth for PW cross mod, not the triangle. Sounds great, but wasn't what I expected.

But d'oh. So many things are not as expected with vintage synths. Our Minimoog for instance has no memory effect on the filter envelope, only on the VCA one. Yet Brok Landers said that the one he got in front of him has an "annoying" amount of it on the filter envelope.

[trimph1]

Found this link on gearslutz about the science and psychology behind the analog/digital debate.

Part 1
https://ask.audio/articles/analog-vs-di ... dio-part-1

Part 2
https://ask.audio/articles/analog-vs-di ... dio-part-2

It's pretty basic but may be of interest.

Cheers

Pretty interesting stuff here
Thanks!

[david.beholder]

Oh, the Synthex has analogue envelopes and stuff. I presume the LFO and glide that also acts as a small pitch envelope is digital because the DCOs are digital. The circuit schematics of the Synthex are hard to read. It's a matrix of chips.

AFAIK only pulse is digital and then there are analog waveshapers (different from Juno).

Don't know about the Prophet 12 though, have stayed away from it due to reports of aliasing oscillators.

Aliasing visible on specrograph and it sounds horrible with opened filter. There are thread about it on GS, but I think there are better options to invest time.

I'm most bugged when envelopes are digital and when short release with closed lowpass filters times produce audible chirping noises. I don't expect that to be the case with the Synthex, but I haven't heard an analogue synth with digital envelopes not doing it, including the Prophet 6.

Interesting bit about higher sample rates on contemporary control circuits.
I hope this development continues, a VCA envelope needs to run at an update rate of 40+ kHz in order to sound "right" for me.
A lower rate with linear interpolation would be fine, but of course a 1 pole lowpass filter either does not interpolate linearly enough or is too slow, at least for the cases that I have heard - there's a mod for the Jupiter 6 using different capacitance at the S&Hs that eliminates the zipper noise, but it also makes the envelopes boringly slow. Again, I'd be happy to be wrong, maybe I should check some of those newer synths out.

Well that's bummer.
I was under impression that Prophet 6 has analog env. Why do they have so limited routing if they are using digital env and digital lfo?
Interesitng q how stability of their oscillators are enforced?

Could you post some sound/waveform examples of this zipper noise some day? I'm really curious.

I had my own project with 100 mhz cpu feeding 5 pwm legs with resulting frequency 22k and it was really low CPU utilization. So it might be possible to take some 2ghz arm with enough outs and do it brute but effective way

[chk071]

https://ask.audio/articles/analog-vs-di ... dio-part-1

Asking which is "better", analog or digital, is a false dichotomy, it is exactly the same as asking whether a Fender Rhodes is better than a Yamaha DX7. Like both legendary keyboards, analog and digital recording media have their merits and demerits, each has a particular character, and it is up to the artist and audio engineer to decide which character best suits the needs of the project at hand.

Isn't this quite failing the point? I thought the point of analog emulations was to mimic the behavior of analog synths as close as possible, and sounding as similar as possible. Now, a Yamaha DX7's purpose is not to sound like a Fender Rhodes piano... so why that comparison? The question here is not whether digital or analog is better. The question is, when emulating a specific analog synth, can you still hear differences between the analog synth, and the digital emulation of that specific synth.