I have an old Sony hifi system which can record the audio in to tape. I dont have and am not willing to purchase an expensive reel to reel however. What's the best way to go about recording say a pad directly to tape?
One idea I have is to combine it with the dry signal. With a kick drum would this produce a sort of parallel compression?
Recording to cassette
-
thecontrolcentre thecontrolcentre https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=76240 - KVRAF
- 35177 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny
Make sure you clean the recording heads and capstan roller/wheel for best results. Keep the levels so it's just hitting the red to get some tape compression. Also use the right settings (chrome, normal, metal) for the tape you are recording to ...
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 298 posts since 9 Feb, 2015
thanks, hopefully the resulting distortion and compression will prove musically useful. I might just resample the whole composition and layer it with the original
-
- KVRAF
- 1821 posts since 26 Nov, 2005 from Where silence and chaos meet.
The layering will give you flanging and a few phase cancelation, but no parallel compression...
It's not what you use, it's how you use it...
-
thecontrolcentre thecontrolcentre https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=76240
- KVRAF
- 35177 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny
I've been "re-mastering" some cassette recordings of my bands from the 80's and 90's. Some of it has a really punchy sound to it, but there's always a little hiss in there too.
-
thecontrolcentre thecontrolcentre https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=76240
- KVRAF
- 35177 posts since 27 Jul, 2005 from the wilds of wanny
Good point. It's been so long since I used my 4-track I almost forgot.lfm wrote:Also defluxing magnetic heads is a good idea for best performance.
Remnant magnetic in heads is a disaster.
-
- KVRAF
- 3080 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN
If you want to toast some computer tracks with tape, then get the tracks back into your daw-- The easiest way in some circles used to be called wild sync. You can't control for play-to-play or day-to-day tape speed variations (of which there will almost always be a little) but you can make it as easy possible to time align the tracks after you record them back in to the daw from tape.
One way, use something crisp like a quantized side-stick metronome countoff of some measures before the song beginning. Print the intro countoff to a daw audio track, and always print the countoff along with the track when you record from daw to tape.
That way after you re-record the tape tracks back to the daw, you can zoom in real close in the audio wave view, and slide the metronome ticks from the tape tracks to "exactly" align to the original metronome track in your daw.
If the song is real long, or the tape speed varies rather bad, it might not align all the way to the end of song even if you align the beginning perfectly. In those cases you can usually manually fine tune the timing without much misery, unless the tape speed variations are really bad. You just split the track at each place it has drifted out of sync more than a few ms, drifted enough for the ear to notice. Then nudge the post-split audio back into alignment. This isn't as big a problem on short songs or fairly stable tape machines.
Other people use a 2 pop for marking a sync point, rather than a metronome countoff, as explained here--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-pop
The metronome may be found more musically useful.
For instance in the dim past I would put an absurd long countoff on my sequences-- Maybe 8 bars, with all except the first tick muted on the last bar of the countoff, so as not to conflict with first bar pickup notes.
Even some excellent musicians can do better if you give them a long countoff so they can lock in real good on the tempo. One or two bars of countoff sometimes not long enough to hit the first bars of the song in a perfect groove.
Had a drummer friend, wonderful session drummer. He had a non computer adat studio and two great drumsets miced up and every hand percussion instrument known to man. I liked to add drums near the end of a project. Would make a temp mix with 8 bar countoff and burn to cd or dat. Take it to drummers's house, he would transfer my temp mix to his adat, record multiple drum and percussion overdubs, then dump his overdubs one or two tracks at a time to cd or dat. All the tracks would still have that countoff, so the drum tracks were easy to wild sync back into my daw project.
Primitive compared to emailing files nowadays, just maybe even today wild sync can be the simplest way to get it done.
One way, use something crisp like a quantized side-stick metronome countoff of some measures before the song beginning. Print the intro countoff to a daw audio track, and always print the countoff along with the track when you record from daw to tape.
That way after you re-record the tape tracks back to the daw, you can zoom in real close in the audio wave view, and slide the metronome ticks from the tape tracks to "exactly" align to the original metronome track in your daw.
If the song is real long, or the tape speed varies rather bad, it might not align all the way to the end of song even if you align the beginning perfectly. In those cases you can usually manually fine tune the timing without much misery, unless the tape speed variations are really bad. You just split the track at each place it has drifted out of sync more than a few ms, drifted enough for the ear to notice. Then nudge the post-split audio back into alignment. This isn't as big a problem on short songs or fairly stable tape machines.
Other people use a 2 pop for marking a sync point, rather than a metronome countoff, as explained here--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-pop
The metronome may be found more musically useful.
For instance in the dim past I would put an absurd long countoff on my sequences-- Maybe 8 bars, with all except the first tick muted on the last bar of the countoff, so as not to conflict with first bar pickup notes.
Even some excellent musicians can do better if you give them a long countoff so they can lock in real good on the tempo. One or two bars of countoff sometimes not long enough to hit the first bars of the song in a perfect groove.
Had a drummer friend, wonderful session drummer. He had a non computer adat studio and two great drumsets miced up and every hand percussion instrument known to man. I liked to add drums near the end of a project. Would make a temp mix with 8 bar countoff and burn to cd or dat. Take it to drummers's house, he would transfer my temp mix to his adat, record multiple drum and percussion overdubs, then dump his overdubs one or two tracks at a time to cd or dat. All the tracks would still have that countoff, so the drum tracks were easy to wild sync back into my daw project.
Primitive compared to emailing files nowadays, just maybe even today wild sync can be the simplest way to get it done.
-
- KVRist
- 317 posts since 5 Jul, 2002 from Sydney
VHS tape in HI-Fi mode.
-
- KVRian
- 963 posts since 29 Sep, 2006
Cassette does not equal Studer or ANY quality reel to reel.dewgong wrote:I have an old Sony hifi system which can record the audio in to tape. I dont have and am not willing to purchase an expensive reel to reel however. What's the best way to go about recording say a pad directly to tape?
One idea I have is to combine it with the dry signal. With a kick drum would this produce a sort of parallel compression?
Will it compress, yes, but it will also do a bunch more unwanted things.
Recording to cassette is not for quality recording, ever.
There are lots of plugins that can do the job better.
--After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.
-Aldous Huxley
-Aldous Huxley
-
- KVRAF
- 3231 posts since 18 May, 2003 from Sweden
How do you plan on geting the dry and the tape processed versions phase synchronised, necessary for parallel compression?dewgong wrote:One idea I have is to combine it [tape recording] with the dry signal. With a kick drum would this produce a sort of parallel compression?
If it were easy, anybody could do it!
-
- KVRAF
- 7540 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area
Like Sparky77 said, a cassette is never going to get you studio quality tape compression. You would do better to look at it as an effect to significantly mangle your audio. I would bounce some individual tracks out to tape and back, but not the entire mix. You're going to end up with a lot of tape hiss and mostly a very tinny sound. Maybe put some percussion through there, but not your main kick drum. Do a lead sound or a pad or some kind of backing ambience, but keep other sounds clean and unprocessed. This will accentuate the processing of the parts you do bounce to tape. Or keep the whole song clean, but then bounce some little bridge or breakdown section to tape for an abrupt "this section sounds like an old recording" kind of feel.
Incomplete list of my gear: 1/8" audio input jack.
-
- KVRist
- 108 posts since 26 Mar, 2009
Hi, I have repaired more than 30 cassette decks in last 2 years. (and never sold 
)
I always try and record to many decks for the best sound character while the mastering.
I use Type I or Type II tapes for those recordings.
Generally, Cobalt or Chrome tapes (type II) has better than performance, and Metal (type IV) is the best theoretically.
However, when you want to get the saturation, Ferric (type I) gives you nice result.
There are many tapes available. Most are made in China, Korea, Indonesia.
Buy every tapes and try them one by one. Cheap bad tapes are bad for Hifi usage, but still use for the saturation.
Noise reduction is also an important thing. Every reduction has good and bad points.
I use dbx 224 external noise reduction unit, dbx is my favorite. (Breezing noise? I like it
)
DolbyB/ANRS = Compand Hi Freq
DolbyC = DolbyB * 2
DolbyS = Modern
dbx II = Single Band Compand
SuperD = 2 Band Compand
ADRES = Multi Band Compand
Dolby HR = This is not a noise reduction! You should always on if you have.
Always make sure that your deck is in good condition.
Check your self;
Can you play your old tapes as it is? Check the tape speed.
Record and play the white noise. Do L and R channel have same response?
Record sine wave and play. Isn't it distorted? And have correct phase (when you are using 3 head deck)?
What deck do you have, btw?
Best
Yudaidhun
)I always try and record to many decks for the best sound character while the mastering.
I use Type I or Type II tapes for those recordings.
Generally, Cobalt or Chrome tapes (type II) has better than performance, and Metal (type IV) is the best theoretically.
However, when you want to get the saturation, Ferric (type I) gives you nice result.
There are many tapes available. Most are made in China, Korea, Indonesia.
Buy every tapes and try them one by one. Cheap bad tapes are bad for Hifi usage, but still use for the saturation.
Noise reduction is also an important thing. Every reduction has good and bad points.
I use dbx 224 external noise reduction unit, dbx is my favorite. (Breezing noise? I like it
)DolbyB/ANRS = Compand Hi Freq
DolbyC = DolbyB * 2
DolbyS = Modern
dbx II = Single Band Compand
SuperD = 2 Band Compand
ADRES = Multi Band Compand
Dolby HR = This is not a noise reduction! You should always on if you have.
Always make sure that your deck is in good condition.
Check your self;
Can you play your old tapes as it is? Check the tape speed.
Record and play the white noise. Do L and R channel have same response?
Record sine wave and play. Isn't it distorted? And have correct phase (when you are using 3 head deck)?
What deck do you have, btw?
Best
Yudaidhun
-
Winstontaneous Winstontaneous https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=98336
- KVRAF
- 2351 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA
Good post...do you have any suggestions for someone looking for an inexpensive but good-quality cassette deck in 2015? I have a Denon and Realistic that have seen better days.Yudaidhun wrote:Hi, I have repaired more than 30 cassette decks in last 2 years. (and never sold
I always try and record to many decks for the best sound character while the mastering.
I use Type I or Type II tapes for those recordings.
Generally, Cobalt or Chrome tapes (type II) has better than performance, and Metal (type IV) is the best theoretically.
However, when you want to get the saturation, Ferric (type I) gives you nice result.
There are many tapes available. Most are made in China, Korea, Indonesia.
Buy every tapes and try them one by one. Cheap bad tapes are bad for Hifi usage, but still use for the saturation.
Noise reduction is also an important thing. Every reduction has good and bad points.
I use dbx 224 external noise reduction unit, dbx is my favorite. (Breezing noise? I like it
DolbyB/ANRS = Compand Hi Freq
DolbyC = DolbyB * 2
DolbyS = Modern
dbx II = Single Band Compand
SuperD = 2 Band Compand
ADRES = Multi Band Compand
Dolby HR = This is not a noise reduction! You should always on if you have.
Always make sure that your deck is in good condition.
Check your self;
Can you play your old tapes as it is? Check the tape speed.
Record and play the white noise. Do L and R channel have same response?
Record sine wave and play. Isn't it distorted? And have correct phase (when you are using 3 head deck)?
What deck do you have, btw?
Best
Yudaidhun
-
- KVRist
- 108 posts since 26 Mar, 2009
Sadly, the current available deck by TEAC (W-890R Series) has very bad wow-flutter (0.25%)Winstontaneous wrote: Good post...do you have any suggestions for someone looking for an inexpensive but good-quality cassette deck in 2015? I have a Denon and Realistic that have seen better days.
Better to buy used or repaired decks. Most of them are not quite highly priced. Sometime it is cheaper than plugin, why not buy the real one
Need one? Try the later 80's deck by AKAI/A&D with GX Head.
GX Head is made by Glass & Ferrite, which rarely has problem being worn out.
I have GX-Z9100 and I can get good sound even with Type I tape.
The frequency response is about 15-22,000Hz with Metal Tape, Wow-Flatter is 0.025%.
When you are searching for cheaper one, find Lo-Mid end decks by early 90's TEAC, like V-x0x0S (S - has dolby S).
I bought working V-2020S(55,000JPY) with just 2,000JPY last year. It has nice wide range sound (15-21,000Hz) and has Dolby HX and S. I own V-7000(75,000JPY) too, but regarding the character and saturation, sometime I still choose V-2020S for the recording, since V-7000 is too close to the source sound.
