KVR Audio

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:31 am

tapper mike wrote:
aciddose wrote:You are operating under the assumption that this person uses a physical instrument while this may not be the case.

My opinion regarding instruments is that they have a very significant influence on what you play due to the practicality of playing them.
The problem with removing human involvement in the physical performance is it removes humanity from the process which reduces composition arrangement and performance to an equation.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, it sounded like a whole load of nonsense.

I was merely pointing out the fact that the instrument a person uses may not be the instrument you think they use.

For example keyboards are quite common. Perhaps this person does not use a keyboard?

The keyboard has a massive influence on what you produce while using one. There is absolutely no doubt of that. In fact the keyboard has more influence than the performer in most cases.

Evidence: we can easily identify a keyboard performance vs. a guitar performance. It is exceedingly difficult if even possible to reproduce one with the other.

Q.E.D.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:50 pm

Steve Vai never played a keyboard in his life and yet was able to arrange and compose for Frank Zappa. There are many such stories in history of composers writing for instruments they have never played. As for performance people are more adaptive then you give them credit for. The generalized ideal and the "feel" of a piece is more important then if a note is a glissando or a bend or a slide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pH0b9ATYa-8

Keytar Jeff doesn't play guitar. His renditions of guitar tunes are quite convincing. It's the spirit of the piece which matters more then the letter of the law (notation)

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 4:46 pm

Sure, what you're missing out on though is the fact that the people who composed these over long periods of time had their skills shaped by the instrument they used.

Also "keytar jeff" is a laugh. Quite convincing indeed...

Now do the same with a piano rather than a set of samples from guitars including phrasing that still manages to sound like total bullshit.

The instrument he plays (including the samples and phrasing) shapes how he sounds far more than even a piano or guitar would. The decisions regarding phrasing are made ahead of time by the engine he's using rather than having that under his own direct control. This eliminates any expression that would have otherwise been made possible via such control.

A system specifically designed to reproduce a particular performance reproduces that performance. Big surprise?

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 6:52 pm

And again.. Steve Vai wrote as well as arranged for Frank Zappa which required a great deal of orchestration for non guitar instruments in a pseudo classical situation.

As far as keytar jeff goes I think you need to have your ears checked and then compare his performances with those of the original guitarists. Once again quite a stirring rendition of which is the point of performance. Not simply to be a clone of the original.

YJM' Studied Guitar using Violin classical pieces. Not even close to the same instrument or tuning yet somehow he was able to pull off convincing enough performances to perform with leaders in the classical realm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ-QVIJHNC4

It's not the primary or secondary instrument that limits the potential for the composer/arranger. It's merely the mindset of what one thinks what can/should be attained on a specific instrument and the rigidity which cannot accept adaption.

Do you think this young woman said to herself. I can't play guitar songs because I can't play guitar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM7DQYCg03w

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:06 am

It's a stringed instrument.

Is there perhaps a problem with your brain?

You obviously have already rejected the concept because you do not understand it and you haven't thought about it for even a moment.

Can she use this instrument to reproduce green onions?

In theory it is possible! Yet I doubt she would.

That isn't the point though. The point is if she were composing or performing, would she come up with the same performance as that produced using the organ keyboard?

Let's get this straight: Is your point to say that the instrument used has no influence on the performance?

It is completely missing the point to argue that you can approximate a performance on another instrument. You can not duplicate it and more importantly the influence of the original instrument is what is approximated with the new instrument!

You aren't going to successfully argue and convince me of your point of view if you remain completely ignorant of mine.

What it looks like is that my statement has offended you. You are responding emotionally to defend your views due to cognitive dissonance triggered by something I said. Yet as much as you wave your hands around and attempt to brush off my argument it seems you are powerless to argue against it so long as you remain incapable of paying it any heed.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:29 am

Based upon my statement it would be best if desired to learn many instruments, much like it is best to learn many languages.

After absorbing the knowledge from many of the concrete types it becomes easier to identify the common abstraction between these types.

Acknowledgement of the influence of a particular instrument should encourage one to be aware of such influence. It can then both be avoided or used to your advantage.

Once this abstract concept is open to your mind you may also realize that the DAW or sequencer alone is also an instrument with its own influence!

The important thing is the point I was making is simply that we do not know the instrument or instrument used by this person. Your suggestion was to learn an instrument in order to learn musical skills in general, rather than aiming to learn a more abstract music theory independently from a particular instrument. My only point is that these things may be in conflict; that is to say by learning a particular instrument the method and skills learned will differ from those developed without that instrument. If the goal of this person is to develop general knowledge of music theory independently from say, guitar theory, learning to play a guitar may in fact be counterproductive.

An analogy familiar to programmers is the idea that one should learn the C language before learning C++. Every experienced C++ programmer knows that this is extremely counterproductive. Learning C you will in fact learn skills that are entirely inapplicable to C++ and you will definitely reinforce negative behaviors. Certain techniques may make sense in C, while in C++ these techniques are entirely obsolete. Ultimately if your goal is to learn C++ you should avoid any exposure to C as it will both corrupt you as well as waste your time. At best, learning C may teach a C++ programmer what not to do.

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:11 pm

Honestly I wholeheartedly disagree

Learn one instrument sufficiently before moving on to the next. Muscle memory is how we learn to speak. Speaking is a muscular activity. It requires a wide range of muscles to reproduce the sounds we here. Muscle memory is how we learn to play an instrument. Developing a pathway from the brain through the muscles to activate the sound. Playing many instruments at first only confuses and distracts. Limiting your focus to a singular instrument (at least for the first few years) allows you to focus your energies and develop proper technique from which to build upon.

Play chords. Learn how to move from one chord to another smoothly in a progression. Develop physical rhythmic skills. Practice your material to fine tune your technique Work through common chord progressions. Play a song using it's chord progression. Pat yourself on the back and then move forward.

Play scales. Get comfortable with a few keys. Play familiar melodies based on the scale. Develop a sensibility to how those that you enjoy listening to also work out melodic ideas.

You are a human. You live in a world of humans. Music is a human craft. art, skill. It is sound intended as a form of a communication between humans. Removing yourself from the equation by trying to cut and paste and randomly generate ideas removes you from your music. It no longer becomes yours and as a consequence no longer becomes Music. Because music is a human creation intended to express ones humanity/identity to other humans.

arkmabat · Post by **arkmabat** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:15 pm

tapper mike wrote:And again.. Steve Vai wrote as well as arranged for Frank Zappa which required a great deal of orchestration for non guitar instruments in a pseudo classical situation.

As far as keytar jeff goes I think you need to have your ears checked and then compare his performances with those of the original guitarists. Once again quite a stirring rendition of which is the point of performance. Not simply to be a clone of the original.

YJM' Studied Guitar using Violin classical pieces. Not even close to the same instrument or tuning yet somehow he was able to pull off convincing enough performances to perform with leaders in the classical realm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ-QVIJHNC4

It's not the primary or secondary instrument that limits the potential for the composer/arranger. It's merely the mindset of what one thinks what can/should be attained on a specific instrument and the rigidity which cannot accept adaption.

Do you think this young woman said to herself. I can't play guitar songs because I can't play guitar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM7DQYCg03w

Interesting. Don't forget that that Eddie Van Halen was a classically trained pianist though.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:25 pm

tapper mike wrote:Learn one instrument sufficiently before moving on to the next.

Nothing I said is in conflict with this.

My statement is only that if you were to learn only that one instrument and stick to it, you would be heavily influenced by it and ignorant of that influence. In addition you likely would learn nothing from that single instrument other than the specifics of that instrument, and have limited ability to understand the more abstract parts of music theory that apply in general and not to a specific instrument.

That "one instrument" is very often a DAW sequencer.

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:49 pm

shonoob wrote:I am talking about simple things as a complete beginner like learning major/minor scales, and also how long does it take to get familiar with the keyboard notes, and chords? Chords always seem easy in concept but the black keys are still mixing me up. Also, how does one know what key a song is in (is it based off of what the root note in a chord progession/scale is)?? Sorry if the question is a little stupid.

Thank you very very much.

The OP seems to indicate pretty clearly that the keyboard is his instrument of choice.

Harry_HH · Post by **Harry_HH** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:06 pm

Sorry about the sideway, but as a Hendrix fan have to say
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM7DQYCg03w
is great arr. I wonder if Jimi ever though Far East flavor whe he wrote the Voodoo Chile? The girl must have heard eastern influence (although there wasn't) because she choose this song and find the Hendrix song mood familiar. Is it in the melody, in the blues scale micro intervals or where. African-Far East connection...

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:47 pm

I've been a fan of Luna's YouTube videos for a while now. She does covers of a lot of old classic rock and blues songs. Incredible!

tapper mike · Post by **tapper mike** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:33 pm

South Korean's have embraced westernism for a very very long time now. Our western culture is merged with their own. They mix and match English with Korean in conversation. Korea has been producing "western" musical instruments. Between Samick, Peerless and Cort at one time Korea produced 80% of all guitars worldwide. While a small portion of the music in Korea remains traditional the vast majority is western influenced. Using western scale system and western concepts regarding time signatures and harmony.

There are more then a few Korean child prodigies out there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgVqX0a49HM

As for which roads any given artist may travel... Much of it has to do with exposure. The more you are exposed to a certain type of music the more you may identify with it. Sometimes after listening to a lot of Kpop I too wonder what brings them back to the well.

A_SN · Post by **A_SN** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:44 pm

Here's what I think you should focus on in order to get a good grip on everything you need.

Learn the basics of producing notes with an instrument. I actually don't recommend a piano keyboard because of the white keys vs black keys that somehow make it more complicated unless you stick to A minor/C major. An instrument that allows you to quickly figure out what's the interval (in semitones/frets) between your root and whatever note you're playing is best.
Learn tunes you like or find interesting. When you begin to learn then every new tune you learn how to play teaches you something new and important.
Do not learn a tune before you've figured out what tonality it's in. If you want to make sense out of what you're playing it's critical that you understand what key you're in. If you're just rote learning the notes without understanding their position in the scale and therefore their function then you won't learn anything and you won't understand the how or why of why what you're playing is good.

If you follow the 3 above points you'll be ready to figure everything else out as you learn new tunes. You can read in a book about how melodic minor scales work or how's a 12 bar blues structured, but you'll never understand it as well as when you know every note in a tune that uses that. By learning to play a wide variety of tunes you will progressively encounter examples of everything you need to learn. Also:

If you want to focus on understanding music theory then learning a perfect playing technique is secondary, what matters is how much you understand, not how well you play. And scales are a very simple thing, if you can't remember scales you're using an approach that's not working for you, if you can't play the scales maybe you picked the wrong instrument to learn. Don't waste time practicing scales, rather learn music that uses that scale you're trying to learn.
Don't focus so much on learning a laundry list of chords, but rather when you encounter chords try to understand how its components fit (or don't fit) in the scale. Understanding how chords come about is more important than learning all the possible chords. For instance a lot of triads are built from playing 3 notes that are each separated by a note of the scale (like, A-C-E with B and D not being played), and you can find a lot of chords simply by playing every other note of a harmonic minor scale up or down over 2 octaves (like A-C-E-G#-B-D-F-A-C...).
Try to remember things (scales, intervals, chords, entire tunes) in terms that are simplest and make the most sense to you. For me it's using numbers from 0 to 11 where 0 is always the root. Whatever it is it should help you make sense of the diatonic function, because you really need to get a good feel for what the functions accomplish, and you'll get that feel through a combination of learning music and knowing the position of each note you play in the scale you're using.

bernieclari · Post by **bernieclari** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:46 pm

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Try reading this . I think it should be a good start

http://www.jazzpractice.co.uk/?p=268 (http://www.jazzpractice.co.uk/?p=268)

Bernard Holden

How long does it take to learn basic music theory?