Land of No Tomorrows
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1158 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from London, England
Three layers of lead vocal, five layers of choir, seven layers of percussion and a few assorted instruments in this musical eulogy for the world. I hope you like it.
https://soundcloud.com/garryknight/land-of-no-tomorrow
https://soundcloud.com/garryknight/land-of-no-tomorrow
- KVRAF
- 6304 posts since 18 Jul, 2008 from New York
The composition is very good. I can tell you put some real work into this.
I think the mix could be improved. The percussion is very upfront while the vox sound distant. The percussion is perhaps too robotic for this organic style of music. The mix is missing high frequencies.
I think the mix could be improved. The percussion is very upfront while the vox sound distant. The percussion is perhaps too robotic for this organic style of music. The mix is missing high frequencies.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1158 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from London, England
Thanks, Frantz. I have a problem with high frequencies on the only equipment I have to mix on, including my rubbish PC speakers. I'll have a look at it with a spectroscope and see what I can change.
- KVRAF
- 7691 posts since 11 Jun, 2006
the song itself flows along very well, nicely chosen sounds too. but as Frantz noted... it lacks a bit of high
end sparkle. it seems to lack a bit of low end as well giving it a slight midrange overall sound.
and while i frown on heavy use of brickwall limiters, yours can actually use a little of it.
your recording level on this is quite low to my ears.
here's how i graphed it, thin red line= avg. energy from a busy part in your song. yellow line=ideal.
end sparkle. it seems to lack a bit of low end as well giving it a slight midrange overall sound.
and while i frown on heavy use of brickwall limiters, yours can actually use a little of it.
your recording level on this is quite low to my ears.
here's how i graphed it, thin red line= avg. energy from a busy part in your song. yellow line=ideal.
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HW SYNTHS [KORG T2EX - AKAI AX80 - YAMAHA SY77 - ENSONIQ VFX]
HW MODULES [OBi M1000 - ROLAND MKS-50 - ROLAND JV880 - KURZ 1000PX]
SW [CHARLATAN - OBXD - OXE - ELEKTRO - MICROTERA - M1 - SURGE - RMiV]
DAW [ENERGY XT2/1U RACK WINXP / MAUDIO 1010LT PCI]
HW MODULES [OBi M1000 - ROLAND MKS-50 - ROLAND JV880 - KURZ 1000PX]
SW [CHARLATAN - OBXD - OXE - ELEKTRO - MICROTERA - M1 - SURGE - RMiV]
DAW [ENERGY XT2/1U RACK WINXP / MAUDIO 1010LT PCI]
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- KVRAF
- 3508 posts since 12 May, 2011
Speaking (typing?) as someone who loves choirs - a nice piece. Good work, but I don't like the blip-blop sounds of old drum machines.
I listened to a couple of your other tracks, and true to your profile blurb, you seem to like 80's drum machines. They seem to be in fashion right now. My personal opinion is that they should stay in the 80's! Get some proper drums in there!
But what do I know?
Good stuff all round.
I listened to a couple of your other tracks, and true to your profile blurb, you seem to like 80's drum machines. They seem to be in fashion right now. My personal opinion is that they should stay in the 80's! Get some proper drums in there!
But what do I know?
Good stuff all round.
- KVRAF
- 6160 posts since 29 Mar, 2003 from Location: Location
I`ve edited this response a few time now. My thoughts have changed towards it from the first couple listens.
Taking into account the other critiques, i`ve come to lean more towards them then I did originally.
I can see where it might be time to think about a new percussion mentality...but we sometimes might have to work with what we have.
The spectral balance has been mentioned. I don`t know. Some sounds i`d bring up or down in the mix rather then compress. For example the hats are too 'there', but I think that sample choice should be changed rather then do anything else.Same for the 'claps', did I hear claps? Anyway, the mix, instruments,vocals and loudness level I like. The spectral dips between ranges could be addressed, somewhat. The bass and treble ranges are good, and I don`t feel they need to be extended in the mix, but I can see benefit from a mastering with a multi-effect hardware processor. I know that`s not easy to find in VST form. The mix could use what a multi-processor could give, namely spaciousness, brilliance,down-compression.
Generally the mix sounds flatly balanced on this hi-fi system. (Bose 601 series II)
New Age/World is not one of my fave genres, but you have done a fine job mixing and arranging.
Taking into account the other critiques, i`ve come to lean more towards them then I did originally.
I can see where it might be time to think about a new percussion mentality...but we sometimes might have to work with what we have.
The spectral balance has been mentioned. I don`t know. Some sounds i`d bring up or down in the mix rather then compress. For example the hats are too 'there', but I think that sample choice should be changed rather then do anything else.Same for the 'claps', did I hear claps? Anyway, the mix, instruments,vocals and loudness level I like. The spectral dips between ranges could be addressed, somewhat. The bass and treble ranges are good, and I don`t feel they need to be extended in the mix, but I can see benefit from a mastering with a multi-effect hardware processor. I know that`s not easy to find in VST form. The mix could use what a multi-processor could give, namely spaciousness, brilliance,down-compression.
Generally the mix sounds flatly balanced on this hi-fi system. (Bose 601 series II)
New Age/World is not one of my fave genres, but you have done a fine job mixing and arranging.
....................Don`t blame me for 'The Roots', I just live here.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1158 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from London, England
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I probably should have pointed out at the start that while I initially mixed it to sound good enough on my PC speakers, KRK reference headphones, Bose hifi headphones, and Samsung earphones, I haven't had time to do a proper mastering job. There's a limiter on the Master track but no overall compression. When I get to this stage I'll probably use Studio One's Tricomp. I've just moved on to Studio One from Live 9 Suite so I'm learning as I'm going. The track is pretty much at the same level (reading -3 dB) as the other tracks in this collection so I don't want to compress it too much; it's meant to be easy listening, not chart materiallayzer wrote:the song itself flows along very well, nicely chosen sounds too. but as Frantz noted... it lacks a bit of high
end sparkle. it seems to lack a bit of low end as well giving it a slight midrange overall sound.
and while i frown on heavy use of brickwall limiters, yours can actually use a little of it.
your recording level on this is quite low to my ears.
here's how i graphed it, thin red line= avg. energy from a busy part in your song. yellow line=ideal.
Thanks. But there aren't any drum machines in it. There is one layer of hand-programmed toms, and one of congas, bongos, and timbales, both playing cross-riffs to mark section changes. Each of these is using real drum samples that I seem to recall were included in some Ableton packs. There's a drum loop from an Ableton pack that comes in at bar 17 with an EQ modulation until it hits full range at bar 33. This drum loop consists of a kick sample, a closed hat sample, and what sounds to me like a synthesized clap; the latter is probably what gives it the drum-machine sound.Ayorinde wrote:Speaking (typing?) as someone who loves choirs - a nice piece. Good work, but I don't like the blip-blop sounds of old drum machines.
I listened to a couple of your other tracks, and true to your profile blurb, you seem to like 80's drum machines. They seem to be in fashion right now. My personal opinion is that they should stay in the 80's! Get some proper drums in there!
But what do I know?
Good stuff all round.
There's a layer of African drums taken from Kontakt's West Africa instrument that plays from bars 17 to 33 then throughout to mark section changes. And a looped djembe sample from the same instrument that comes in at the end to change the rhythm. The crash is a sample from some freebie pack, and the bells are from some new age sample pack. The whole thing is intended to have a world-music feel overlaid with choir and mixed vocal samples, including the excellent Clara's Vocal instrument from Stefano Maccarelli.
And yes, some of my other tracks have used 909s but only the EDM stuff. The rest use a combination of library loops with programmed samples and Kontakt percussion instruments overlaid.
Thanks. I hope your thoughts weren't too coloured by other posts. I like multiple layered drums, especially mixing more exotic drum sounds with standard acoustic drum samples.annode wrote:I`ve edited this response a few time now. My thoughts have changed towards it from the first couple listens.
Taking into account the other critiques, i`ve come to lean more towards them then I did originally.
I can see where it might be time to think about a new percussion mentality...but we sometimes might have to work with what we have.
The spectral balance has been mentioned. I don`t know. Some sounds i`d bring up or down in the mix rather then compress. For example the hats are too 'there', but I think that sample choice should be changed rather then do anything else.Same for the 'claps', did I hear claps? Anyway, the mix, instruments,vocals and loudness level I like. The spectral dips between ranges could be addressed, somewhat. The bass and treble ranges are good, and I don`t feel they need to be extended in the mix, but I can see benefit from a mastering with a multi-effect hardware processor. I know that`s not easy to find in VST form. The mix could use what a multi-processor could give, namely spaciousness, brilliance,down-compression.
Generally the mix sounds flatly balanced on this hi-fi system. (Bose 601 series II)
New Age/World is not one of my fave genres, but you have done a fine job mixing and arranging.
I always have a problem with hihats. My KRK KNS-6400 headphones make them practically disappear for some reason, so they usually end up much too loud to start with. That becomes obvious when I listen again on speakers at a more reasonable (to the neighbours) time, and I always have to plug an old pair of earphones into my PC speakers' socket to hear the high end properly. One day I'll have the money to invest in a good pair of reference speakers, but there's absolutely no way I can have my room treated so I'll have to limp along with my mixing. It's a hobby, so that's fine by me.
As for multi-effect processor VSTs, Studio One comes with a couple of channel strips, a pretty good compressor with sidechain abilities, and a three-band compressor with a saturation knob. On my Master track at the moment, apart from a spectrum meter and a level meter, are a limiter set to -3dB with a 275 ms release, a 7-band EQ with the top and bottom end rolled off - which is almost certainly why I'm losing the top end - and Audiffex's STA Enhancer with Low and High Process set to 0 and Saturation set to 77%. But the saturation obviously isn't making up for the lack of high end. This is what I get when I have little time to spend on doing a good job.
I'll bring the high frequencies back and try and adjust the saturation for a crisper, lighter high end without over-emphasizing the hats. And I could try compressing the bass to bring the bottom end up. But it's interesting that you get a "flatly balanced" sound, as my EQ shows this kind of curve pretty much all the way through the track.
Anyway, thanks everyone for your valuable feedback. It's very much appreciated.
- KVRAF
- 6160 posts since 29 Mar, 2003 from Location: Location
Your responses to what I said sort of missed the mark.
You get into compression and saturation, but I didn`t think it needed much of any compression besides what might sound good after a run through a hardware multi-effects processor (MEP).
Concerning the drum loop, I thought the hats and claps samples needed changing, not lowering. The crash I liked.
Spectrum graphs won't give you a plot that can be translated as a good mix. It can show problem areas and by trial and error and A/B switching, show when you`ve gone right with the fix...but rooms and ears aren`t linear and graphics won`t show you a good mix, your ears will, with the assistance of graphics. That said, and as flat mixes go,yours sounds pretty good with the Bose.(didn`t listen on the studio Mackies)
Lastly, a MEP uses sophisticated algorithms combining reverb, delay, pitch,EQ, and compression simultaneously. You can run a finished stereo mix through one with amazing results.(don`t look at my stuff for examples) I wasn`t talking about a saturation plug like STA Enhancer.
If you know someone with a MEP , you can send your .wav file then you and he could choose/create a good MEP algo then process those tracks you want to sound similar, as if mixed/mastered for your new virtual CD.
Getting carried away here. Rather then nit-pick at someones mix efforts, I just came to suggest 'maybe a MEP?'.
EDIT - Yeah, I agree.The low-pass could be opened up a tad more...but not too much, at least I like this high end low tech dullesh. Dropping a high pitched percussive sound such as a tiny bell into the treble range to give the mix some sparkle would work and sound interesting...having the mix low passed and the sparkle of the bell tapping. How you`d get around that master stage low-pass with a bell is your problem.
EDIT2 - Yeah, lower the hats. The sample is not that bad. Pulling it into the back as not to be noticed will do fine.
You get into compression and saturation, but I didn`t think it needed much of any compression besides what might sound good after a run through a hardware multi-effects processor (MEP).
Concerning the drum loop, I thought the hats and claps samples needed changing, not lowering. The crash I liked.
Spectrum graphs won't give you a plot that can be translated as a good mix. It can show problem areas and by trial and error and A/B switching, show when you`ve gone right with the fix...but rooms and ears aren`t linear and graphics won`t show you a good mix, your ears will, with the assistance of graphics. That said, and as flat mixes go,yours sounds pretty good with the Bose.(didn`t listen on the studio Mackies)
Lastly, a MEP uses sophisticated algorithms combining reverb, delay, pitch,EQ, and compression simultaneously. You can run a finished stereo mix through one with amazing results.(don`t look at my stuff for examples) I wasn`t talking about a saturation plug like STA Enhancer.
If you know someone with a MEP , you can send your .wav file then you and he could choose/create a good MEP algo then process those tracks you want to sound similar, as if mixed/mastered for your new virtual CD.
Getting carried away here. Rather then nit-pick at someones mix efforts, I just came to suggest 'maybe a MEP?'.
EDIT - Yeah, I agree.The low-pass could be opened up a tad more...but not too much, at least I like this high end low tech dullesh. Dropping a high pitched percussive sound such as a tiny bell into the treble range to give the mix some sparkle would work and sound interesting...having the mix low passed and the sparkle of the bell tapping. How you`d get around that master stage low-pass with a bell is your problem.
EDIT2 - Yeah, lower the hats. The sample is not that bad. Pulling it into the back as not to be noticed will do fine.
....................Don`t blame me for 'The Roots', I just live here.
- KVRAF
- 3177 posts since 28 Aug, 2012 from Melbourne, Australia
Really enjoyed the flow of this and the music itself. But have to agree a bit of polish with some more sparkle to the high end would really bring it alive. Excellent composition and choice of harmonic flow...
Well done!
Well done!
Bandcamp
Music with progressive intent.
Music with progressive intent.
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- KVRAF
- 3508 posts since 12 May, 2011
Sorry, that's just a little personal rant, and this isn't the place for it. As I said, "What do I know"!garryknight wrote:Thanks. But there aren't any drum machines in it...Ayorinde wrote:...drum machines. They seem to be in fashion right now...
But what do I know?
Good stuff all round.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1158 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from London, England
I spent some time today composing a reply, hit Submit and thought it had been uploaded. Now I realise that it hadn't. Better luck this time around, I hope.annode wrote:Concerning the drum loop, I thought the hats and claps samples needed changing, not lowering. The crash I liked.
Yes, I could unpick the loop using Live 9 or Studio One and rebuild it as a midi loop with new samples. If I can find the time.
No, I was. I have to stick with what I have, at least for the time being.annode wrote: I wasn`t talking about a saturation plug like STA Enhancer.
Unfortunately I don't. I've removed the LPF that was killing the top end and used some saturation to try and bring out more, but some of the samples didn't have much to start with. Your suggestion of adding in something else in that range is a good one, thanks.annode wrote: If you know someone with a MEP
I've already done that at least twice. Did I tell you I have rubbish PC speakers? I have to keep swapping around four or five sets of headphones and earphones of varying quality to get a listenable final mix. Good thing it's just a hobby.annode wrote: EDIT2 - Yeah, lower the hats. The sample is not that bad. Pulling it into the back as not to be noticed will do fine.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1158 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from London, England
Thank you!Allomerus wrote:Really enjoyed the flow of this and the music itself. But have to agree a bit of polish with some more sparkle to the high end would really bring it alive. Excellent composition and choice of harmonic flow...
Well done!
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1158 posts since 6 Jan, 2015 from London, England
Quoting myself for anyone who might read this thread and wonder about why a flat mix might look dynamic on a spectrum analyzer.
What I'd overlooked was the non-linear relationship between the way metering is shown graphically and the way our hearing actually works. Here's what I found in Power Tools for Studio One 2 by Larry the O (pp 108-109):
"The issue is that FFTs, the measurement method used here, have bands of linear bandwidth, that is, each band spans the same number of Hz. Our hearing, on the other hand, is in many ways logarithmic. We like to hear in octaves (doubling or halving the frequency) and other proportional structures, which means that high octaves contain many more discrete Hz than low octaves do.
"Map the linear FFT structure onto our logarithmic hearing structure, and the result is that the higher FFT bands represent a smaller portion of an octave than do lower bands. As bandwidth goes down, so does the energy content displayed.
"Bottom line: something that sounds pretty flat across the frequency spectrum looks on an FFT like it declines in energy as it goes up, because you are seeing individual bands but hearing octaves, which are much wider." [Italics mine]
Not the most scientific explanation, but a good reminder to compare like with like.
It's interesting how we can overlook the obvious. My curve looked dynamic to me, with quite a heavy bass, a lighter middle, and a much lighter top end. And yet I was hearing some quite high frequencies coming out of the mix that didn't seem to be showing up in the spectrum. Some very high-pitched overtones were coming out of one of the vocal samples to the point that I had to sculpt them out with an EQ. So, what was going on?garryknight wrote: But it's interesting that you get a "flatly balanced" sound, as my EQ shows this kind of curve pretty much all the way through the track.
What I'd overlooked was the non-linear relationship between the way metering is shown graphically and the way our hearing actually works. Here's what I found in Power Tools for Studio One 2 by Larry the O (pp 108-109):
"The issue is that FFTs, the measurement method used here, have bands of linear bandwidth, that is, each band spans the same number of Hz. Our hearing, on the other hand, is in many ways logarithmic. We like to hear in octaves (doubling or halving the frequency) and other proportional structures, which means that high octaves contain many more discrete Hz than low octaves do.
"Map the linear FFT structure onto our logarithmic hearing structure, and the result is that the higher FFT bands represent a smaller portion of an octave than do lower bands. As bandwidth goes down, so does the energy content displayed.
"Bottom line: something that sounds pretty flat across the frequency spectrum looks on an FFT like it declines in energy as it goes up, because you are seeing individual bands but hearing octaves, which are much wider." [Italics mine]
Not the most scientific explanation, but a good reminder to compare like with like.
- KVRAF
- 6160 posts since 29 Mar, 2003 from Location: Location
Yes, i`m glad you see that. That was what I was eluding to in my last reply.
As I understand it at this moment from memory, there are three curves that can be applied to decibel measurement...A,B,and C Weighting. One represents the frequency curve of our ears.(forgot which letter).
Decibel meters use weighing curves. But I don`t believe there is any use for weighting curves in a spectral graphic.That idea is beyond me to contemplate.
I do realize what you mentioned above concerning the relative inverse relationship of frequency and power. One goes up while the other goes down.
Maybe better to discuss this as an Effects forum topic and not here in the Cafe?
As I understand it at this moment from memory, there are three curves that can be applied to decibel measurement...A,B,and C Weighting. One represents the frequency curve of our ears.(forgot which letter).
Decibel meters use weighing curves. But I don`t believe there is any use for weighting curves in a spectral graphic.That idea is beyond me to contemplate.
I do realize what you mentioned above concerning the relative inverse relationship of frequency and power. One goes up while the other goes down.
Maybe better to discuss this as an Effects forum topic and not here in the Cafe?
....................Don`t blame me for 'The Roots', I just live here.
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experimental.crow experimental.crow https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6258
- KVRAF
- 6895 posts since 9 Mar, 2003 from the bridge of sighs
no need to run away ...annode wrote:Yes, i`m glad you see that. That was what I was eluding to in my last reply.
As I understand it at this moment from memory, there are three curves that can be applied to decibel measurement...A,B,and C Weighting. One represents the frequency curve of our ears.(forgot which letter).
Decibel meters use weighing curves. But I don`t believe there is any use for weighting curves in a spectral graphic.That idea is beyond me to contemplate.
I do realize what you mentioned above concerning the relative inverse relationship of frequency and power. One goes up while the other goes down.
Maybe better to discuss this as an Effects forum topic and not here in the Cafe?